Limerence, Attachment Trauma & Over-Functioning: How Hypervigilant ‘Serial Fixing’ Shapes Our Relationships

Limerence, Attachment Trauma & Over-Functioning: How Hypervigilant ‘Serial Fixing’ Shapes Our Relationships

SPEAKER_02:
This is The Light Inside. I'm Jeffrey B. Secker. Limerence. What feels like overwhelming desire to please others is often an echo of unresolved attachment imprints, shaping how we seek capacity, certainty, and connection. When we look closely at the ways we reach for connection, we're struck by how often what feels like intensity is really something far more familiar, old patterns resurfacing. In today's conversation, we explore how limerence, especially in its sublimated form, can quietly take shape as a response to attachment trauma, showing up as hypervigilance, overfunctioning, and that reflexing urge to fix, manage, or rescue. Behaviors that look like care, often masking a deeper fear of being left behind. Through this lens, those patterns reveal cycles we struggle to break. Limerence becomes less about longing and more about the body's attempt to regulate old wounds until we learn to see them clearly. Tune in to find out how when we return to The Light Inside. When it comes to mobile service providers, many of the big-name networks leave a bad taste in your mouth, with their high-rate plans, extra fees, and hidden costs or expenses. Mint Mobile is a new flavor of mobile network service, sharing all the same reliable features of the big-name brands, yet at a fraction of the cost. I recently made the change to Mint Mobile, and I can't believe the monthly savings, allowing me to put more money in my pocket for all of the things which truly light me up inside. Making the switch to Mint Mobile is easy. Hosted on the T-Mobile 5G network, Mint gives you premium wireless service on the nation's largest 5G network with bulk savings on flexible plan options. Mint offers three, six, and 12-month plans, and the more months you buy, the more you save. Plus, you can keep your current number or change to a new one if you like, and all of your contacts, apps, and photos will seamlessly and effortlessly follow you to your new low-cost Mint provider. Did I mention the best part? You keep more money in your pocket, and with Mint's referral plan, you can rescue more friends from big wireless bills while earning up to $90 for each referral. At the heart of Limerence lies a longing shaped not just by who we're drawn to now, but by the attachment patterns we learned long ago. Patterns that still steer how we seek connection, soothe fear, and mistake urgency for intimacy. In this episode, we examine how sublimated limerence operates as a pattern response to attachment trauma, driving hypervigilance, overfunctioning, and compulsive serial fixing that looks like care, but signals a deeper fear of abandonment. demonstrating how these hidden dynamics shape the way we show up as caregiving professionals. These dynamics reveal limerence as something far more complex than relational intensity. Instead, it becomes the body's effort to regulate old wounds through patterns that feel urgent, protective, and deceptively necessary. Today we're joined by Leah Marrone, licensed psychotherapist, speaker, and author of Serial Fixer, Breaking Free of the Habit of Solving Other People's Problems. As change leaders, as therapeutic professionals, we're essentially dealing with the everyday circumstances that sometimes create issues for others. Leah, thanks for joining us today.

SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02: Leah's work illuminates the subtle ways childhood conditioning and attachment wounds train us to regulate anxiety by over-committing in our attempts to rescue others. Leah, I'm excited to explore how early attachment imprints and high-functioning coping patterns like over-functioning and hyper-vigilance quietly shape our drive to fix others and how reclaiming regulation and relational balance allows us to help others as we're interacting with them. I'm curious to look at how our personal experiences or moments in our own journey shape how we guide others. So with that in mind, would you share a little bit of your background and what inspired you to write Serial Fixer as a way to unpack these patterns?

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. So I've been a psychotherapist for decades now, and in this field, it gives us the privilege to not only work, I think, one-on-one therapeutically with patients, but I've also had the opportunity to kind of on a macro level, work with teams and organizations and nonprofits around self-awareness, around resilience and recovery and boundary setting. And I've really just picked up on this pattern. Typically, you know, with people in highly empathetic, compassionate fields, where, you know, we're so good at reiterating and telling people, like, you need to take care of yourself. Are you saying no? Are you prioritizing your self-care? But, you know, when it's our turn, we tend sometimes to fall short. And I was really just noticing that a lot of us, when we approach situations, conversations, interactions, you know, with our high levels of emotional intelligence and our ability to read a room or a person's non-verbals, we're immediately sometimes taking false ownership. We're jumping in and taking stock too prematurely and going in with this kind of fixer solver soother mode. And you can see where this is really this recipe for doing this in all of our relationships. And it comes from a good place, but it's oftentimes our compassion sometimes, you know, disguised as control or discomfort. And it really can lead to that cyclical burnout and compassion fatigue.

SPEAKER_02: As we look at that role, we're often falling into common patterns we utilize as practitioners, as therapists. Systems people in the business network, we're often going to kind of a go-to routine, and we tend to automatically lock into some of those patterns unconsciously. Many people who over-invest in others aren't just helpful, They're reenacting learned patterns of differentiation embedded in the nervous system, illustrating how hyper-responsibility often emerges as a subconscious effort to regulate uncertainty and maintain our sense of belonging, ultimately. From that framing, how do trauma conditioned patterns of over-functioning evolve into chronic hyper-responsibility? And what does that reveal about how the nervous system encodes our sense of safety?

SPEAKER_01: Gosh, yes. I mean, you nailed it. I think from a very young age, you know, depending on kind of how we're raised, kind of the dynamics within our family systems, it's so interesting how we do start to build these associations. A lot of times fixing is helping, fixing is love. You know, a lot of times the child that does have that high level of emotional intelligence and is immersed in maybe an unpredictable, chaotic situation, there is that tendency to be three steps ahead. there is that tendency to kind of shove down and get very good at suppression and kind of that mantra of, I will accommodate, I will endure, I will shove this down and try to make sure that everyone else is okay. So that then ultimately, hopefully I can be okay. And you can see that this is a different level of being on. This is a hyper connection with other people's needs, other people's patterns, where oftentimes we omit ourselves from the equation. And the nurturing and the repetitions and the conditioning that we need growing up to build that self-trust and that self-connection oftentimes, unfortunately, takes a way back seat. And we implement this in our teen and young adult and adult years in relationships and really that hyper-focus on other people's needs. And if everyone else is okay, maybe I'll have a chance to be okay.

SPEAKER_02: From that dynamic, it's interesting to look at how there's quite a paradox throughout our human experience. In some regards, some of us model being able to share emotions, while others are modeled the opposite, where we're given the impression or we learn the pattern of suppressing and avoiding those emotions, of managing those emotions. How do you feel that role starts to play out as we look at where those patterns emerge and how we step back as practitioners or as everyday human beings to start to hold that space and simply re-engage the person in front of us?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's really interesting because I've found with serial fixers and serial fixing, they tend to be so good at creating what you just alluded to, that safe place and space for other people to access vulnerability. To, you know, kind of go deeper and, and, and process some of these things. But when it's maybe our turn, again, it's very uncomfortable. We lack the practice and a connection. And so it is, it's this dynamic of externally feeling validated, externally checking the box of like, see, I am able to do this for this person. I am needed. I am worthy. And it kind of in a way cancels out again, the screams that we might hear internally. And so again, if we focus all of our validation externally with I'm needed, I'm worthy. This person is how I build connections is how I find self-worth and it's all out here external. It kind of silences or pacifies the unit's internal needs. But you can see that that just fuels anxiety. That fuels kind of this imbalance of let me just focus everything and my self-worth externally instead of again, kind of bringing back and really focusing on the internal needs that we have.

SPEAKER_02: As I reflect on that, I'm kind of making some bridges and gaps that I'm seeing in my own experience of service to others. I've made an observation lately that we so often frame that purely from the lens of threat and safety. We're reinforcing that message, threat and safety, over and over through our culture. Every time we engage emotions, what are we now doing? We're leaning into this idea that it's automatic threat and automatic seeking of safety. Yet in the background, you and I are aware that there are other patterns or other perceptions that are going on. There are undertones or variables we often overlook simply because we haven't set back first and allowed that comfortable space for both parties to step in and say, rather than assume it's threatened safety, what is it that comes up for you?

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. And you nailed that because I think if you look at kind of the internal family systems model and kind of those protected parts of us, you know, if we are not saying yes, if we are not creating that space if we are not showing up or creating that sense of calm or being steps ahead. You know, that's where kind of our internal pleasers, our internal rescuers, our inner critics, you know, they pipe up. And that's where, again, there's this fear driven component of if people don't see me as a good friend or being there or always being on, or, you know, tending to everyone's needs. And even if I set boundaries or start to say no, or start to put myself in the equation, then gosh, I really fear that I'm going to be categorized as something negative. I'm going to fear that I'm going to experience loneliness or disconnection or people are not going to like me. And so this fear driven and oftentimes very rigid filtration system of how we're processing things stops us from saying maybe no or that's not going to work for me. It's like our body is screaming no. but we continue to push through and consistently say yes and overextend.

SPEAKER_02: So there again, I'm leaning back toward that idea of what we're mirrored and conditioned to know and understand about what our body is supposedly doing, what we're estimating it's doing. Those somatic signatures, sometimes we tag them automatically, again, as survival rules, creating a lot of different relational and contextual dynamics there. A lot of times we reinforce that in how we approach it as a practitioner. You know, we're automatically kind of sliding into that rescuer role unconsciously. Wait a minute here, let me rescue you from this threat. Yet, sometimes we put that horse before the cart again and not invite that space. How do we step back and allow that voice to come into the room? Allow those parts to come into the room from your perspective. Where do we start to recognize some of those somatic cues or those subconscious tells, what we call subconscious tells are those little hints to just simply be aware, tune in, but step back and listen.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. It is. I mean, not only just even, and you're working in your clinical role or your professional role, I mean, we're hopefully trained to kind of, you know, meet the person, meet the situation where it is, but we do, we feel sometimes this waiver, this urgency of, I need to be able to suit this person. I need to be able to give them really good advice or suggestions or know exactly what to say. Because if I don't, then am I actually a really good clinician or practitioner? Or should I even be in this field? Or does this person even want to work with me anymore? And you can see the self-talks will start to ignite. And even in our personal lives with our partnerships, raising our children, our friends, I think there's also this pressure that we have this strong, rigid association that if I can't solve, soothe, and fix this for this person, then am I worthy? Am I good at this? Are they really going to come to me anymore? And what's that going to do for my level of self-worth? And so I really do think it's like anything else. It's really starts with that awareness piece, right? And it's not about perfectionism. It's not about all or nothing, but just collecting some data around just interactions, whether they're in your professional role or personal role. When someone comes to you with emotion interwoven in their hurdle, their struggle, what they're dealing with, is your first inclination, maybe based on your own discomfort because of theirs, your attempt to try to fix and solve and structure and kind of untangle this for them so that they can get relief and then you can feel fulfilled, you can check the box and you can get relief. And I'd invite you to think about, am I going in fixing, solving, or am I supporting? Am I creating that space? And that starts with the magic word of validation, right? And meeting them where they're at first.

SPEAKER_02: From my own experience, so often, as I'm tiptoeing up to a new connection point with a client, whether they're a new client, they're a long-term client, whether they're even just a casual associate, especially as we're kind of modeling that notion in our brains, in our bodies, wherever we're framing it from, because it's a very complex dynamic, we do start putting things in order in motion. We start to look at estimating and forecasting. effective forecasting coming in there arousal prediction you know what's coming up for me in my aroused state what is being triggered in me what do we do we go into those roles and modes am i being the manager am i being the firefighter and putting the fire out am i feeling my own exiled parts start to pull back and resist and lean into that solution prematurely As everyday people, you know, I'm going to kind of frame that very loosely, everyday people, you know, right away we start to dissect and discern, differentiate roles. What role is showing up? What part am I playing in this? You know, am I just being the everyday person or am I leaning into my career role? Am I leaning into a family dynamic? How do we start to, from your perspective, consider those different roles and understand when they're starting to step in and just jump ahead and fix.

SPEAKER_01: And this is not a comfortable thing, but you're absolutely right. The body will start to ignite. The body will start to give us signals, especially if it's something in the neighborhood and replicating something that we've experienced a lot, especially in our younger days, right? And we will, we'll start to feel that protective part, like our internal body guards, you know, start to be, start to create this fence for us, if you will, and shield us. It's knowing and having the background of knowing that that is supposed to happen, that your mind and body are working. But a lot of times our bodies, you know, give us 10 body guards when we just need one. And so oftentimes it's thinking about getting in shape When it comes to support don't solve. It's about acknowledging and being able to sit because you're working on something you're getting repetitions under your belt to build that internal muscle. And so when you feel that body signal when you feel that you know rush of adrenaline. or that anxiety start to creep in. It's first and foremost, starting to just, again, there's so much power in naming it. There's so much power in saying, oh, okay, there's my body guard. There's the protective part of me. My role here though, this person has come to me with this hurdle, this feeling, this discomfort and right out of the gate, I'm going to try, which is hard to manage the things that are going on in me and not necessarily manage them. but start with validation. Start with letting that person know, I'm doing the best that I can to decode the message that you are trying to share with me verbally or non-verbally. And I think the power of paraphrasing, the power of tell me more, the power of, wow, it sounds like you have had an intense week. Just starting there, you immediately diffuse the pressure of, I gotta be on, I gotta know, I gotta say the right thing. I feel like I'm having this conversation with this person week after week, and I'm giving them amazing advice, but they're not doing it because they don't have their own flavor with it. And that's the power of keeping ownership with that person as you are still showing up with empathy, compassion, but empowering by keeping the ownership there. And that's tough. And it takes practice and it takes the wherewithal to know that why these signals, why these protective parts are coming out. But your job is to get repetitions in to build that internal muscle and get in shape with them. And they will start to calm down when they start trusting you.

SPEAKER_02: From that aspect, I know myself, as an educator, as someone who is very naturally curious to explore the dynamics part of it, I'm constantly wanting to try to learn and evolve new ways to guide others, help others. I'm gonna be honest, the background, there's an ego element of that where that self-validation of helping comes in as I'm trying to find those nuance in context. I'm constantly digging for more. I think I've got a pretty good grip on not utilizing that as a way to suppress, although I know inherently it does become suppression sometimes. It does become a bypass sometimes, simply for the fact that sometimes you're so engrossed with the act. Whether you're engaged with a recursive pattern or whether there's something triggering, you're still so engrossed with the act of acquiring that you don't step back from that framing and looking at the role of a serial fixer from the framing of the book. How do we start to dissect that nuance that we aren't over-resourcing ourselves or over-resourcing what the person on the other end might have the capacity to handle? You know, I'm going to frame it that way. As a client, how are we guiding the fact that we might be over-resourced for what the client is prepared to handle?

SPEAKER_01: Yes, and it is. I think we want to communicate to our clients, to our children, to our friends and partners that like, Your feelings are too big for you. So let me manage them. Right. I don't think that's what we're trying to communicate, but that's often how we execute. And so, um, I do, I think it's really that question. If you have some prep time, you know, whether you're going into a session or you're going into a difficult conversation, it's reminding yourself, what is my role here? What is my role? What is my lane? And I think it is oftentimes remembering that people, whether it's in your professional world or your personal world, We all come from different levels based on how we were raised, modeled for us. And so it is starting where that person is. And sometimes the timeline is not what we wish it was because it's very uncomfortable, but it is kind of how do I validate first create this space? And am I serial fixing? To soothe myself and to check those boxes and confirm for my ego that, see, I'm at this. See, people need me. See, my self-worth is so wrapped up in this. And when you can pause and kind of be in tandem with that and soothe that part of you and ask the questions that we know how to ask. and start with that validation. It's amazing how you are still leading with the amazing gifts I know every listener on this podcast has, which is compassion and empathy, but you're also not walking away from conversations, interactions, and relationships, feeling overloaded, carrying that boulder, having this emotional stock when it's not yours, and then there's no space for your work.

SPEAKER_02: I think that's a good segue for this question prompt, that invisible labor loop of our emotional interactions. We often label it a labor trap, you know, and it can become kind of a sticking point. How do we start to recognize when that hyper-responsibility is starting to internalize invisible labor as that trigger or that filter of self-worth? And beneath that, it's often driving that unresolved psychological data again, you know, back to those early patterns. Are we trying to validate our fixing from something we experienced within the family trauma? Are we trying to validate another inherent pattern inside of us? From that perspective, how can people distinguish between healthy empathy and trauma-driven overfunctioning that erodes those boundaries?

SPEAKER_01: I think it is, you know, one of the biggest signs is If you're experiencing resentment, if you're experiencing kind of this cyclical exhaustion, or you feel like stress, there's always stressors, there's this line, a huge queue of them, right? And you don't ever get recovery or you're not implementing or creating it. That right there, you're resentful. That right there is a huge indicator that your boundaries are not strong enough, that you are fueling imbalances and interactions and relationships, and oftentimes creating these micro-codependencies. And so it is, you know, taking that step back and really accessing that data to understand like, how am I fueling this resentment, this confusion? this thought and narrative that I'm working so hard to build intimacy with people, to have these really flourishing relationships. And it's not working. What is happening? Or I'm being taken advantage of, or people are non-existent, or I'm always the structurer. And that right there is a good indicator that you are, you're working too hard. And there's some ways that, you know, you can start to pull back. Think about, am I following into serial fixing patterns? Am I creating these micro codependencies? And do I need to start, you know, with the motto of support don't solve and really let people build their muscles internally and really start stepping back and saying, I'm coming at this a bit wrong. I've noticed that I jump in when we're talking and I, and I immediately start to problem solve for you. And I'm sorry, if I'm not communicating that, I trust that you can handle this. I need to be more aware of that. And that's how you start to subtly set boundaries with your I statements and kind of shift a dynamic rather than just pulling back immediately and confusing everyone in your world.

SPEAKER_02: at that juncture so often we are again triggered to jump right in or we're inspired to jump right in you know sometimes it is an aspirational invisible labor we have that goal and we're again kicking into that dynamic what's driving that urge to hurry up and rush forward When do we pull those reins back? Whoa horse, let's not get too far ahead here. So looking at that, what role does shame play in that dynamic or even unconscious unresolved shame that we might not be aware of? And how does that often fuel that response to rush right in?

SPEAKER_01: Yes. I mean, again, I think shame typically happens, you know, when we are confused or not checking that box or kind of, you know, filling in all the gaps and soothing that part of us that really as the driver behind those rigid associations that really ultimately kind of tap into our self-worth. And so it is, I think sometimes that narrative that we create of people aren't coming to me anymore, or this person, you know, I'm not able to suit them. Am I a good clinician? Am I a good parent? Am I this? And we start to question these things. And that's where internalization happens. We make things about us sometimes prematurely. If I only would have talked to them about this, if I only would have done this, if I, you know, I'm always forgetting this and that's why this person is upset. So there's that internalization, there's that filling in the gaps. And oftentimes it does, it can lead to kind of this shame of I'm not delivering, I'm not producing. I must not be worthy and, you know, people are probably going to think negatively of me. And you can see where that's so damaging. And as you're hearing it, you might think, oh, well, that seems overdramatic, but that's the, the real, the internal conflict of the logical part of us, you know, is logical. The emotional part of us, the protective parts of us, they're highly irrational. They're overdramatic and they're future-based thinking oftentimes.

SPEAKER_02: Again, we look at that moral dilemma we often feel, especially as caregiver providers in any kind of medical field or healing field, whether that be emotional healing, what we label emotional healing, spiritual healing. If you go down that path, we often go into those moral dilemmas where now we feel like we may have let someone down. Now we feel like others may be judging that cycle again. How do we start to discern again where that cycle comes in and what are some of the core triggers that come up?

SPEAKER_01: It really is that urgency, right? It's that internal scramble of you start processing, problem solving, fixing, jumping ahead, and you get rid of kind of that, you know, the high level EQ involved in patients. And I think, you know, it's really hard to access effective listening skills truly when we are operating with that sense of urgency. when we are feeding into, you know, those protected properties of us. And I think that's when having some things in your vocabulary that can calm and keep you in the present moment of phrases like, tell me more, or what would it look like if. Or, you know, what would be helpful today and asking those questions that generate ownership of like, this is your journey. This is your hurdle. I'm here with you. I'm going to help you pull at some threads of this tangled mess that you might be trying to hold and manage. But those types of questions, I think really, again, it's about staying in the present because those tendencies and those kind of triggers and the protective parts of us, they are very ignited from past experiences or they're overprotective and in future-based scenarios that we're trying to fix and solve while we're trying to fix and solve that person. And so it's anything that you can do to ground yourself and activate those effective listening skills that we all know how to do by asking those questions that keep the ownership with that person and the curiosity burning and muting and holding off on, well, this is exactly what you do. Because that person has to have their flavor, their ownership in order for the activation to happen.

SPEAKER_02: So often we rush or reinforce that idea of listening to tune in, active listening. Culturally, we've rode that horse for a while. We're on a horse tangent today. I don't know why. But so often we are re-engaging that idea of listening. What do we do when we listen? First, we're trying to jump ahead and guess what we're listening for. What happens when we flip that dynamic on its head and start to just witness, to observe, to hold that space, literally the itself holding, putting the sensations on hold first to see what surfaces.

SPEAKER_01: Yes, and that is true, like space creation, like you're being a true space creator when you're doing that. And you're actually practicing presence. You are actually and you can see where that is what the brain craves most. That's when we feel most alive. And I think purposeful and it's not just trying to manage all these different things and protective parts and future based thinking and rehashing the past. It's actually keeping ourselves grounded. And that's when we can activate those truly effective listening skills. It's amazing how many leaders I've worked with even parents I've worked with that have said, you know, but you have to be so patient, and I don't have time and sometimes we're flying by the seat of our pants and I just have to get stuff done and I need to just tell people what to do. And when it's a concrete issue. Absolutely. But when there's emotion involved when there's struggle involved when there's a theme involved. I think that's when we do have to step back and say, I will have to invest a little more time maybe in this conversation and this person. But you're letting them know that I trust that you're going to be able to get through this. I'm not going to manage you. And the time that you spend initially with some of these conversations and support don't solve, it's amazing how you start to see your children, the people that you're leading, the people that you're working with clinically, start to build those muscles. You don't want reliance totally on you. That's where you got to keep your ego at bay.

SPEAKER_02: So often that childhood wound is coming in where we did feel judged or devalued, invalidated by that feedback. How do we step up from your perspective and say, I'm holding that frame, I'm setting the witness here, but yet we're bridging that gap between witnessing and sharing perception. For me, how we structure our framing, when we go into that comparative framing, rather than stepping on that soapbox and fixing, let me give you the empowered view, just stepping back and this is how I perceive it, or this is, to me, it seems like. Yet there's that subtle middle ground when somebody is in a little bit of resistance where that itself can become triggering in allowing them that safety to go in and say, now how do you experience it? From that perspective, either in the book or in your own experience, how do we tend to bridge those gaps and first establish that space?

SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes. I mean, again, and it sounds like you're talking to when we're working with clients and you're seeing kind of that maybe resistance from them, correct? Yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, I think that's to where our patients and our clinical skills and our emotional intelligence really kick in here. And we'll all have this where we'll leave a conversation. And it's like, oh, I should have said this, or I jumped the gun here, or I did this. But it really is, I think, in real time, you know how effective it is sometimes for you to call out again, professionally or personally, like, I'm sensing discomfort, or I'm sensing hesitation. And that could be within you, that could be within them, that could be just the collective nature of the conversation. But sometimes, you know, that vulnerability of, it looks like we need to process this or take just a quick pause and that's okay. And sometimes again, getting comfortable and giving people that opportunity to feel comfortable with the pause, with the let's process this, with let's rehash this again, that too, I think is so powerful. And we don't necessarily do that enough, but it can, that pause can be very uncomfortable, but so powerful when we get repetitions with it.

SPEAKER_02: I'm going to observe that pause for a moment and sit with it. As I lean into this next segment here, I've noticed via this conversation and kind of in the natural arc of where things have gone with our podcast for five years, this subtle recognizing now that inherently I'm always in that fixer mode, especially with the podcast, because we've established that goal. I'm already going into that mode of guiding, already going into that mode of certainty, already locking into those patterns. And now it's something that's created this little sticking point for me to kind of step back and say, how do I effectively navigate that and hold that responsibility and hold it tenderly? acknowledging where I might rush ahead, where I might guide a conversation, because I think I know all the pieces. I think I know where I'm at. I believe this is what should be told. So from that perspective, how do we manage that nuance? I'm not even sure where I want to go with it at this point, which is kind of a vulnerable tell for me to just say, I don't know right now. I don't know where I want to go with it. I don't know how that best helps somebody. And that creates some apprehension as I stop and pause and hold that space for myself. I feel my breath in my chest tightening. I feel myself flushing. Sometimes that's the point. Sometimes that is the step to just say, I don't know what the hell I'm doing right now with it. Because it's a new feeling in this moment. It's a new awareness that says, I may have done things in an order that didn't necessarily attune or align. And that's a vulnerable role space to step into. What comes up?

SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for sharing that. I think that was amazing. And you're absolutely right. Like just you kind of walking through that a bit. It was those, you know, kind of protected parts of you being ignited because you were straying from something that was familiar. And the cool thing about that is that it really highlighted, I think in real time, which was amazing that you shared that is kind of the level of, or the lack of therefore of self-trust when we don't have, you know, kind of that self-trust in that moment that really does ignite. those protected parts and all the bells and whistles and the ability now that hopefully you're feeling like, wow, you know, Leah and I working together and I'm recovering from that. You got an amazing repetition and you just got something in that you reminded your body and mind that I do have the ability to recover. I do have the ability to execute when things maybe aren't scripted or exactly how I thought they may be. And I think that that right there, That self-trust that we can tap into and build, and the more opportunities that we put ourselves in uncomfortable situations or challenge ourselves, we get more practice and comfort with recovery. And that then boosts our resilience, boosts our level of self-trust, and that enables us to shut off sometimes those urgent feelings, you know, where our trauma response is kicking the gear. and we can be in the moment and know that I don't have everything scripted. I don't know actually what the hell might happen in two seconds, but I do trust that I'm going to be able to be resourceful and navigate it, and I'm going to be okay.

SPEAKER_02: No, sometimes we have to be all right with not having our own answer. Sometimes we have to be vulnerable enough to demonstrate that to others, that it's not always about the answer. Sometimes it's just about holding space. It's not even about asking the question yet. So often we're rushing to those steps rather than stepping back to witness, to just gather, to just be available and say, what is allowed to come up? Am I allowing it to surface? Or is that tension again rising to say, Oh no, here it comes. I'm bracing. What role do you feel that bracing plays in that process? And how do you guide others to become aware of when that steps in?

SPEAKER_01: Right. And that bracing, you know, in those feelings, again, you said it beautifully where it just, that pulls us away. I think from the ability to pause, be present, to soak in, you know, the conversation that you're having and what's happening. And again, that's what I think when we feel truly alive and if we're flying through life, you know, kind of trying to manage everyone else and manage ourselves. We're missing the vulnerability, the interaction, the connection, whether it's to people, whether it's to our environment, and we're missing that. And that kind of perpetuates this cyclical, you know, sense of urgency and stress and always being on and five steps ahead because that's productive. That's safe. That's getting stuff done. And so I really do advise people to capitalize on transitions throughout the day. And what I mean by that is when we're transitioning from. just physical locations, maybe our kitchen to our bathroom, or we're in our car from our work to home, or, you know, roles or, you know, anything mindsets when we're transitioning, we have dozens of them throughout the day. And many of us now are cluttering those transitions. with being on our devices, getting ahead on this. Let me check this email. Let me do this. I'm in the car and I'm checking this to hopefully give myself the opportunity to relax later. But we fill that with stuff and we multitask. And so I really have tried to advise or to push people, encourage people to capitalize on some of your transitions throughout the day, whether they're 10 seconds or 10 minutes, and view them as micro reset opportunities. View them as opportunities to get in shape with being present. to check in with yourself, to access your five senses, to just look around, to be present and access that sense of calm. It might ignite some anxious thoughts initially, because again, you're not used to it. You're not used to using those transitions for that time, but we start to build comfort around it. And that too helps us in relationships and interactions to access that sense of calm and refer to that resilience that we're banking with those practice sessions.

SPEAKER_02: So often in our everyday life, no matter if we're in a helper role, if we're in just whatever other role, we are engaged in that self-monitoring, often to the point that we're not even aware of it. It's not in our consciousness. We're automatically listening for the ding of that incoming email and jumping to that conversation or that point of reference. which automatically starts to add a little digit there. Here's a little point of data that's piling up. Now I'm starting to think, oh, I've got to hurry ahead and answer this email or what's coming in. You know, we go into that firefighter mode again. Oh, I'm waiting to see this might be something stressful because you're anticipating again. How, from the perspective of the book, do we start to monitor instances where we are unconsciously over resourcing?

SPEAKER_01: Yes. And it really is. It's really kind of pulling again, your data and have that self-awareness of just like, Ooh, I am doing this. Ooh, I am, you know, kind of waiting for the next external source of structure because I don't feel that I can actually be on my own or not have anything stimulating me or feeding this association that I'm productive and I'm doing good work. And, you know, and that's, I think it, it calls for a total reframe. Sometimes there's times for us to access that grid there's times for us to act act with a sense of urgency, but we are not built and made to do that every day all day, because then we miss we miss these opportunities to feel alive and truly connect. And so I do, I think it's really kind of experimenting with yourself, if you will, and getting in shape with, I'm going to invite these moments of pause. I'm going to invite these moments where I do check in or debrief myself or celebrate a win rather than moving on to the next thing. Because that, you're serial fixing within yourself then, right? You're not actually like giving yourself a moment to pause, to reflect, to debrief. And therefore that's transferring, I think, in all your relationships and interactions externally. You know, someone shows you or baits you with maybe a yes or no question, but you don't answer with a yes or no. You're already giving them a whole playbook of what they should do and all the things that should stand in the way or they should be aware of because God forbid they're uncomfortable or they don't achieve something because that ultimately might reflect poorly on you.

SPEAKER_02: You know, often that kicks us into cycles of social and cultural stigmatism. You know, we often talk about the stigmatism tied to mental health itself. There's ultimately a piece of self-sacrifice, no matter which end of the equation you're on, that becomes a part of that stigmatism. Looking at social stigma as an influence or a factor there. This is one of the great mysteries about any kind of mental health practice. What exactly is that stigma? How do we start to identify the underlying foundations of that? And from your perspective, what might be one point we can consider that might lessen or reduce that stigma?

SPEAKER_01: I mean, gosh, we could talk, I feel like, for a whole nother hour about that, right? But it is.

SPEAKER_02: We're going tangendental on that again.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I do. But the stigma, I think, around not only the stigma that we have, you know, as the providers, but the stigma, too, of, you know, I don't need therapy, I don't need help, I don't need this, because, you know, I think there is still even that notion that I don't need someone to tell me what to do. I don't need someone who, you know, thinks that they can figure me out in an hour and give me this whole recipe because I don't have it within and the strength and power to do it myself. And you all know, listening to this, that's not how therapy works. But I think that's the stigma too, is that it's this like deficit. It's that, you know, people fear like I have a deficit, I'm damaged. I don't know what I'm doing. Therefore, I need someone else to manage me. And that, again, I think we're working, all of us, I know, very hard to reframe that, where it's like therapy and clinical work and creating space for people is not about solving and fixing. It's about, you know, helping them identify patterns, helping them identify where, you know, some opportunities are for them to gain that resilience, how they were raised, how that impacts, how they're, you know, sabotaging themselves in real time. And when we start to uncover and not, you know, view another client is like, oh, I've seen this before. Yeah. Here's the protocol. Here's the recipe. It's again, like that empowerment piece and that support don't solve. And I think that right there. is a huge way to let people know, like you have the tools within, some of them might be incredibly dormant or some of them might have not been ignited yet because you didn't have space or there wasn't healthy safe space for that, it wasn't created for you. But as a clinician, as a therapist, as someone, a provider, like that's what we're trying to help you uncover. That's what we're trying to soothe those protective parts within you and build that self-trust so that you can access and gain some of those repetitions on your own.

SPEAKER_02: As a provider, I'll say a provider, caregiver, that role of self-martyrdom, that's a hard word for me to say, self-martyrdom, that need to kind of put yourself out there and validate through that fixing steps in. What role, subconsciously or unconsciously, do you feel that might play in how we engage these patterns?

SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is. I mean, that's our inner critic all the way, right? Just like, if you don't know the answer to this, if you're not able to do this, if this person, you know, you can't make them feel better, then I don't know if you're good at this. I don't know if you should do this anymore. I don't know if this person's going to like you or come back or, you know, it really does. It chips away and kind of starts to eat at our level of self-worth and how we connect and what we've maybe spent hours working towards and trying to do. And so it is, it's acknowledging like, what is this inner critic trying to protect me from feeling? What is this inner critic motivated by? What can I do to start to try to soothe it, to break the rigidity? And kind of, I love encouraging my clients too, it's just a lot of them find themselves in this all or nothing thinking, this black and white thinking. And it's more so like, what's the gray? Let's find the gray. How can you know, you know, we kind of meet ourselves in the middle and be that internal mediator, if you will, from these very conflicting, you know, very rigid, overpowering parts. And really it's starting to chip away and acknowledge these rigid associations that were built from a young age, acknowledging using them as data, but starting to refrain and give them a little more space to find the gray rather than that black or white thing.

SPEAKER_02: Now that tiptoes me up to my own role of self-martyrdom here that I'm reflecting upon now in the moment and breathing into and living with what comes up in that identity. Inherently, you know, I always identify myself as that 40,000 foot thinker. I'm always managing and firefighting. I'm always over-resourcing because there is a learned pattern there. There is a condition pattern there. I've modeled that behavior in my roles and in what my core sense of self is. And I'm just going to sit with that for a second, because I don't even know where I'm going with it again in this vulnerability now, but it does become its own form of when I lean in and get curious. Now I'm reflecting back and as we're talking back and forth, what triggers are coming up? Well, I feel that bracing again. Why? Because there's an inherent resistance to that idea of it being black and white. I run the opposite direction. Now I'm dragging everybody else into that cycle. I'm now kicking into the hyper fixer mode. Well, we got to fix the black and white. What are we doing to get away from the black and white? Am I able to hold that black and white with uncertainty, whether it's my tension or whether it's someone else's? How do I start to tune into that? and not drag somebody into that mess metaphorically.

SPEAKER_01: And you know, if I'm vulnerable for a second, I think for me, it was not as a clinician, but as a parent and as a partner, when I would hear the sighs. the deep sighs in my house, like the, or the distress or the complaints or the just discomfort, you know, that would kick me into fixer mode. Like I would start to brainstorm and think like, Oh, well, let's just do this or I'll call the teacher or I'll do that. Or, you know, and I wanted to sue the immediately because guess what? That was my rigid association with, I don't know if you're the best mom or the, not the best, but like a good mom, if you can't get ahead of this. If your child is feeling this, I don't know if you're a good partner if you're not doing this. And that right there, gosh, you can see where the ego plays a big role in that. Like it makes it about you, your deficits, you internalize, you start to homicide. When it's in reality, like my children, my husband need to feel that discomfort and need to know that I'm there. but that, you know, it's not always about me and my deficits and what I need to do. I can empower and I can listen and I can use those skills that I know and have that level of self-trust that I'm good at, but it's okay. And they need to find that they can recover from that to build their own internal resilience and self-stress. So that's been a huge learning curve for me.

SPEAKER_02: Looking at that, you know, and I'm reflecting back on my own experience, and now I'm like, yeah, I wasn't even really considering again, where in our upbringing, my mother did that. I'm not blaming her. I am blaming her because there's an unconscious blame there. As we frame that, when that comes up, a lot of times we're not aware of those subconscious tells again, it's telling us something about our inner state. we might not be attuned to that. Sometimes we're hyper attuned to that. I'm looking at those grays again, looking at the context and situational variance there. again what do we do we frame threat we frame safety but maybe sometimes just in our framing we've kind of created that black and white because now we've marginalized it back down to threat and safety maybe we could reframe what our nervous system is doing what these responses are doing and they're just differentiating the context in the situation, the tone and character, the black and white. So it's not so rigid now. And it becomes more uncertain, more vulnerable and more safe to explore what bubbles up.

SPEAKER_01: And it does like chip away. And I think that association that fixing is love. Yeah. Right. Fixing means love. And again, It's kind of that compassion sometimes that's disguised as our discomfort, right? Or our discomfort disguised as compassion. And so it is, it's really understanding. I think the way you do that is just like, am I making this about me? Am I making this situation or this person's feelings or the scene that's unraveling in front of me or what I'm hearing? Am I just making it about me? And trying to ultimately soothe and fix and solve so that then I can feel okay and check that off and confirm and really fuel that rigid association that I have about being good enough in this role. So it does, it's that self-awareness, it's that, oh, I am doing that, and it's not shame and judgment, it's just, I have a little bit of work to do, as we all do. And I think it is, it's really striving as best you can to be present, to start with that validation, to use those little phrases like, tell me more, or you do, you sound really disappointed. And those right there kick you into that gear of like, this is theirs, I'm compassionate, I'm empathetic, I'm empowering, but don't jump into fixer mode, we're not there yet.

SPEAKER_02: There again, reeling that back and looking at where we've been throughout our today, that common goal of trauma resolution, quote unquote, reintegration, is not perfection. It's awareness and integration. It's capacity and safety. It's that gray dynamic of those contexts and situational factors coming together so we can create a sense of agency, so we can create a sense of co-regulation, so we can hold a mutual space of understanding with each other and return to that adaptive choice and internal capacity. From that dynamic, as we wrap up today, Leah, how does cultivating internal self-agency transform hyper-responsibility into adaptive responsibility or adaptive availability, maybe even?

SPEAKER_01: It is. I mean, that self, just like anything, and I'm going to go back to the whole self-agency, that self-trust, you know, it really does take practice. It really does take that internal work, which I know is uncomfortable. which I know we have to create space for. And if we're constantly creating space for others and using external or people's struggles to be our structure, you know, our check the box, confirming things we are, we're missing the boat when it comes to that self-agency and that self-trust. So it's not just about kind of the, just say, no, just say, you can't do this. It's about really understanding how you're showing up, why you're showing up in those ways, why you're acting with that sense of urgency. why you might be following into serial fixing patterns and how that is kind of limiting our ability to have that connection and relationship with ourselves. And again, like you said, just that agency to regulate ourselves as we're hoping to create space for that person to have ownership of their regulation with us there to help.

SPEAKER_02: As we wrap up here today, or get close to wrapping up today, such a vulnerable salient point to just remember to tenderly hold that space. So as we kind of lean toward wrapping up today, looking back to the book, is there one core tip that you can leave us with today? how we can vulnerably and tenderly ground ourselves in that space to simply recognize when we're truly serving others without overextending ourselves.

SPEAKER_01: Yes, I really do. I mean, I think just the motto, you know, honestly, that I created for myself years ago is that support don't solve. How am I supporting or am I solving? And that's quick. It's easy. It's kind of that like, you know, self check-in. but support don't solve. I think that's a wonderful thing to kind of gather some real-time data with yourself and your professional and personal roles. And I really do. I know all the listeners, you know, kind of tuning in have incredible frameworks when it comes to this material and this, you know, the book I think will be helpful, but ultimately too, I think it's going to be incredibly helpful. And my hope was that anyone with extensive knowledge in this area or limited and nothing, it doesn't even know necessarily what a boundary is. could pick this book up and hopefully gain self-awareness, hopefully gain some real time, you know, kind of reframes or practice to start implementing and increasing the internal boundaries and relationship within so that we can fuel more balanced, healthy relationships externally.

SPEAKER_02: It's such wonderful insight and feedback to sit with today. As we wrap up, where can our listeners go to tune into your program as a psychotherapist and also connect with the book?

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. Thank you. Well, you can find me at liamarone.com. I'm on the social platforms and Yeah, Serial Fixer. I mean, you can buy that wherever you like to shop for books online. But if you do read it, I'd love to hear your feedback. I'd love to hear your thoughts. And please do connect with me. I'm always open to supporting the supporters.

SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to dig in the book a little further and share any insights and feedback I might gain from it. I know inherently that I'm going to have an eye opener there just based on our conversation. So thank you for that. You're also currently on a book tour, correct?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm on a book tour. I'm kind of winding down, but we'll see what, you know, the new year brings, but it's been so exciting and just so warm. And I really, it's been amazing. So I'm so thankful for all of that.

SPEAKER_02: Are there some stops coming up soon that our listeners might be able to visit with you?

SPEAKER_01: Ooh, you know, there's some brewing. I was in Indianapolis, and I was in Charlotte, obviously, where I'm from. I'm going to the University of Texas in Austin, where I studied, and I'll be speaking there in early December. And I have some things in the works, so please do follow me, because I will definitely be keeping you all posted on that. And if you have ideas, I'm always up for a trip.

SPEAKER_02: You are such a warm and inspiring individual to connect with, so I would definitely, definitely welcome our listeners to reach out and connect with you in person. This has been such a fun interaction. Oh, it has.

SPEAKER_00: It's been wonderful. I feel like we could talk all day. And thank you for your vulnerability. That was so powerful.

SPEAKER_02: Likewise. Thank you. I know that can often be a challenging space. I know, especially me, because I am inherently a serial fixer. You're not alone. All the subtle ways that that tends to surface. So thank you. Thank you for shedding that light backward toward me and allowing that vulnerable space to explore that with you.

SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you so much. It's been amazing.

SPEAKER_02: Thank you. Come back and talk with us again soon.

SPEAKER_01: Will do.

SPEAKER_02: Namaste. The light in me acknowledges the light in you. Have a wonderful day, Leah.

SPEAKER_01: Oh, you too. Namaste.

SPEAKER_02: Relational attachment wounds often teach us to equate connection with responsibility, making caretaking feel like the safest path to being valued. These early imprints can blur the line between empathy and overfunctioning, pulling us toward fixing others as a way to manage our own internal loop. When vulnerability feels risky, managing someone else's distress becomes an indirect strategy to regulate our own. Over time, this pattern reinforces the belief that harmony depends on our intervention, rather than on shared capacity and genuine mutuality. If you found value and meaning in this episode, please share it with a friend or loved one. As a community, we'd love to hear how this episode inspired you. Please drop by any of our major social media outlets and join the discussion. And as always, we're grateful for you, our inspired community of therapeutic professionals. This has been The Light Inside. I'm Jeffrey Biesecker.