Moving on from Narcissistic Abuse: Letting Go and Finding Healing with Shannon Petrovich

Moving on from Narcissistic Abuse: Letting Go and Finding Healing

Jeffrey Besecker: This is The Light Inside, I'm Jeffrey Besecker. Narcissists, we write about them, we talk about them, we linger in our debates about them, we spotlight them in our social and personal thoughts, conversations, and inter-musings, and we forever try to unravel the mystery that is moving on without them. To the point of obsessiveness, we debate narcissistic experiences in a way that is, in a word, inherently narcissistic in its character. One thing often we don't talk about is how to simply let go and move on. Instead, we linger in the endlessly ruminated thoughts about how we can get back at them. Struggling to regain our sense of normalcy, we cleanse still to the one thing we've grown familiar with, our dependency of their familiarity. Today we talk about how, in the wake of narcissistic abuse, we pull up the weight of that anchor and finally move on. We chat with clinical therapist Shannon Petrovich, author of the book Out of the Fog and Into the Clear, which serves as a powerful Morse star in the journey of healing from toxic relationships. Shannon and I share this in-depth conversation about emotional insurgency and why it's the key to ending our prolonged attachments to that narcissistic person we finally kick to the curb. Tune in to find out how to transcend that urge to hang on, and instead creating the confidence surge to sail into the sunset of a brighter future, when we return to The Light Inside. We'd like to offer a shout out to our affiliate matching partner, Podmatch.com. Podmatch is the revolutionary podcasting matching system driven by AI. As an industry leader in podcast guesting and hosting, they are a go-to solution for creating meaningful podcast interactions. Podmatch.com makes finding the ideal guest or host effortless. Stop by and visit our affiliate link today at www.thelightinside.us. Life anew, that quiet urgency that is frequently felt in the wake of narcissistic and abusive relationships. We often find ourselves emotionally demoralized, energetically spent, and drained of our vibrancy. As a result, we seek not only answers, but sometimes a sense of retribution, and in our darker, less vibrant moments, even revenge. Exploring the deeply transformative journey of emotional, mental, and psychological healing that survivors embark on in the aftermath of narcissistic abuse, there is no doubt these relationships can leave us shattered, wreaking havoc on our sense of esteem, trust, and overall well-being. But as we delve into the scripts of these narratives, we'll unveil the resiliency that blooms amidst adversity. Joining us is Shannon Petrovich, herself navigating these same circumstances and sharing how to reinvent a new story of survival, growth, and resiliency that will empower you with that glimmer of hope that emerges. Reminding us that there's light at the end of the tunnel and an anchor for a brighter, healthier future. In the wake of narcissistic relationships, we can often find ourselves feeling underwater, so to speak, as we navigate the effects of post-abuse trauma, as we struggle to form new associations and move on. Shannon, I'm excited to explore with you today how A concept known as surgency empowers us as individuals to move beyond the emotional control dramas of narcissistic abuse and regain a healthy sense of self-identity and relationship associations. Leaning in, emotional surgency is the transformative process of harnessing inner strength and resilience to move beyond the effects of emotional abuse, regain a healthy sense of identity, and form more constructive relationships. Often in the wake of these experiences, the abuser will linger in those prolonged stages in heightened states of victimhood rather than healing their inner wounding and moving towards healthy resolve. I feel that's a great place for us to jump in today, Shannon. From that perspective, can you explain the prolonged mental and psychological effects of narcissistic abuse on individuals and how it impacts their self-identity and relationships?
Shannon Petrovich: Thanks, Jeffrey. I think this is an amazing topic because we often don't talk about that and people get lost, especially on YouTube channels and other little rabbit holes on the Internet and just talk about the abuse over and over and over again and really don't work on the tools to move past it. And it's really critical to understand what happened in order to understand how to heal it. And the interesting thing about a narcissistic relationship is that it's so insidious. It starts off so positively and then over time they undermine and devalue and isolate you and gaslight you so that you literally don't know which way is up and which way is down. In my book, Out of the Fog Into the Clear, I talk about that because fog is a lot like being in the fog. You really can't see your hand in front of your face. You can't decipher what's real and what's not real. You can no longer figure out even what you feel. A lot of people in my clinical practice will say, I don't know what I feel. I don't know what I want. I don't know what I need. And that's because the narcissist demands that everything revolves around them. So over time, you've focused on that so much. And then they throw in these little bombs of It's like walking through a minefield and you don't know what's going to blow up but you know something will and so you're tiptoeing around and you're focused so much out there that you don't have any internal focus. You don't pay attention to your own thoughts, feelings, wants and needs and pretty soon you don't even know what they are. So there's a lot of ongoing trauma that happens that is, if you don't understand why you're feeling that way, you'll just keep feeling that way because it's not really obvious how to get out.

Jeffrey Besecker: That constant bombardment leads us into that state where we're constantly activated emotionally and constantly seeking that role of protector. In that regard, it starts to inform our perspective we're on the lookout. Seeking ego filters and emotional filters to guide that perspective. That often starts to become those subconscious scripts or stories to support our perspective of those past events. Cognitive distortions, self-perception, and negative self-beliefs often result from that narcissistic abuse. Shannon, how do you feel these factors hinder someone's ability to regain a healthy self-identity post-traumatic abuse?

Shannon Petrovich: That's really the essence of it, is that the person is bombarding you, undermining you, devaluing you, and then they basically have trained you to devalue, undermine, and devalue yourself. And so it's very difficult to see that and then see it for what it is. But all of that was just manipulation. It had really nothing to do with you. They're really good at finding those targets. and then zeroing in on those targets and hitting those buttons until they are no longer effective or until you're just so bankrupted emotionally that you're of no more use to them. But that process causes you to lose your sense of self, lose your ability to self-protect. And then people do one of two things. They will become super defensive around others or they will just kind of crawl into a hole. So you find that people live in that constant fight or flight or freeze mode and don't ever get past that healing the autonomic nervous system and then being able to utilize the rational mind.

Jeffrey Besecker: And so often we get caught not only in that role of protector trying to guard ourselves, but we also get lost in that role of the control drama. You know, we're struggling to feel that sense of self-control, that sense of controlling our circumstances, and very realistically, trying to figure out how we can control this interaction or relate in this interaction to this narcissistic person who's exerting that control over us. we can get a little bonded and clingy to those roles.

Shannon Petrovich: Right. And then the process of cycling that love bombing with the isolation, the devaluing and undermining hooks you into living on breadcrumbs, basically. So the initial love bombing felt so great. And that person is always blaming you for any conflict, any drama that they have really thrown your way. So they're throwing all this drama, you're walking over these minefields and blowing up here and there, and you always feel like it's your fault because they're telling you it's your fault. And then when you've internalized that self-identity, it's really hard to understand what actually happened. None of those things were even real. They just knew what your really tender spots in your heart were because they love-bombed you and found them. And so you have to recognize that they were just gathering ammunition and they know what the most effective ammunition is. They have those armor-piercing bullets and they will find they will find their mark. But the answer is not to become more defensive around everybody in the world, and it's also not to become passive and crawl into a hole. It's how to see all that for what it was, separate from that, and not only in that person, but other people in your life, and begin to rebuild yourself from the inside out.

Jeffrey Besecker: All of that emotional chaos can become very bewildering and disorienting in that regard as we're experiencing this emotional abuse. The tendency then arises to start monitoring those emotions, emotional monitoring. This leads us to remain on that constant watch we mentioned as we start to speculate about the actions of other people during our future connections and relationships. From that regard, does this emotional monitoring often lead to either enmeshment or entanglement in regards to how we form our attachments throughout these relationships?

Shannon Petrovich: Yes, we tend to be so in our fight, flight and freeze that we're very all in or very all out. And so that can lead to entanglement and enmeshment. For sure in the narcissistic relationship, someone is entangled and enmeshed. They oftentimes say they miss that person, even if that's the worst person in their lives. causes them the most grief and stress, is just as toxic as anybody could be, and they'll still say, I miss that person when they're gone. Basically, it's almost like heroin, where those little times of good feeling are overwhelmed by the bad feeling, because your emotional system, like your physical system with heroin, is so enmeshed and entangled with that other person's breadcrumbs. So we have to get to a point where we realize So you have to calm down your emotional and survival systems. That's the only way you can get your rational mind back on board. So you're literally working without a rational mind on board. Because when our emotional and survival systems are firing off all the time, our rational mind's not on board. If you think about it, it was created brilliantly to give us the ability to fight, flight, or freeze. That adrenaline surge to the brain puts us in that mode and we're able to do things that we wouldn't normally do. But we don't need the rational mind when we're in that crisis state. But we need that rational mind because we're not functioning. When people say, I feel crazy, I feel like I can't think straight, you're absolutely right. It isn't that you're crazy and you haven't suddenly aged 50 years. It's just that the stress is causing you to live in that animated place. But again, the solution is not to become more and more hardened and defensive. And it's not to also just trust everybody blindly. I really encourage people when they say, how am I ever going to trust again? And I say, I hope you don't. I hope you learn to trust yourself. I hope you learn to listen to your own internal creep-o-meter. And that you've learned to really listen to yourself instead of listening to other people's words that might just be shining you on because you have a gut feeling about it, but you talk yourself out of it. And so you have to learn to listen to those indicators. You have to learn to take a step back emotionally, not be so invested and involved in this relationship right off the bat, even if they seem to be. I had a woman tell me that a guy showed up to the first date with an engagement ring and I'm like, no, I was coming in hot. That is the definition of love bombing. And he was trying to hook her right off the bat. Well, when you take a step back and you say, well, that's. moving a little fast as he implode, explode, separate, ghost you, you know, that's the test of whether this is viable or not. When you take time, when you share your thoughts, feelings, wants and needs, does he peace out? Does he freak out? Him or her. Obviously, this is not gender specific. There are plenty of narcissistic women in the world. But in that case, you know, is a guy. So we're not trying to we're trying to stop living in that fight, flight or freeze. We're trying to start living back in our ability to notice our emotions and take care of them. but live with our rational mind on board.

Jeffrey Besecker: We may have jumped the gate a little bit on going to enmeshment and entanglement. Could you give us a brief layman's overview of those processes of emotional enmeshment and emotional entanglement?

Shannon Petrovich: So I guess I'll jump back into attachment styles and people talking about this a lot, which is great, but they're basically four attachment styles and different scientists call them different things. I like secure attachment, which means I feel secure enough in myself that I can attach to someone else, but I'm still myself and I'm still an individual with my own ability to take care of myself, to express myself and to stay in my own skin, basically. Then there's three insecure attachments. Insecure dependent, insecure detached, and chaotic. The dependent is that enmeshment entanglement. A lot of people on the internet are talking about how narcissists are looking for that attachment style. That's probably true. If you have an insecure dependent style, You have to learn to step back. You've probably developed codependency in maybe early childhood or adolescence or what have you, so that you feel a need for another person. You feel that need to hook into that person to recharge your sense of self, to recharge your batteries. And yes, we are interdependent, but we don't want to have our extension cord just plugged into another person. That's just not right. Even with a non-narcissistic person, that entangled and meshed kind of relationship is not healthy. So you have to stay in your ability to recharge and restore yourself and then come as a whole person to that relationship. So it's typically that anxious dependent person that will get enmeshed and entangled.

Jeffrey Besecker: In that regard, we get addicted to that control drama on both ends of the spectrum. As we experience post-abuse trauma, that specter of gaslighting can linger, as we mentioned. Shannon, from your perspective, can you share how this emotional monitoring can often lead us to remain vigilant about the future prospect of gaslighting throughout our lives? We've experienced the abuse. Now we're vigilant and on the lookout with everybody we experience.

Shannon Petrovich: Yeah, and that's one of the really big damaging parts of it is because we've had our sense of reality challenged over and over and over again, so we don't trust our own sense of reality anymore. And I'm involved in a couple of groups online and I see people talking all the time about, well, you know, she did this, is that gaslighting? He did that, is that gaslighting? Am I being gaslit here? that to me speaks of a lack of ability to test reality for yourself. And so they're going on the internet and testing reality with 500 strangers. And that to me, you know, just screeches of the non healed aspect of that person's journey, that they're now dependent on this group of people who are just making it up as they go along too. You know, it might be better than your own reality testing, which is all enmeshed and trauma bonded to that person, but it's still not living within your own skin.

Jeffrey Besecker: This is a little aside, but in that regard, we can witness and observe now how socially we've started to leverage that as kind of a buzz phrase, gaslighting. And maybe even to a larger degree, narcissism toward anybody we simply have a different perspective or point of view with.

Shannon Petrovich: Yeah, that's absolutely right. Both words have become completely weaponized in our culture. and sometimes it's accurate and sometimes it's just being used as a weapon to make someone not confront you or not tell you the truth or not be in their whole selves in a relationship. And so I've seen people who are actually the abuser use those phrases on the victim and the victim to buy into it and go, wow, I'm turning into a narcissist. No, you're just You're being gaslit again by that projection. So protection is a very primitive defense mechanism that a narcissist uses all the time. And it's a really great strategy to hook somebody because you find that thing that they are not. And you are like cheaters always accuse the other person of cheating. And the other person is, no, I'm not cheating. And then they actually will often believe that that person would never cheat on them because it's such a big issue for them. That's not the case at all. They're projecting that on you because they don't trust themselves because they know they're off cheating. And so they believe you are too. So you have to listen to what people are saying and really learn from that in sort of an emotionally step back place. So that you can see their behavior is narcissistic. Their behavior is gaslighting. Mine is not. They're projecting that on me to undermine me, to undermine my ability to express myself. So it's really crucial that people understand that. A narcissist is really not wired the same way an empathic person is. They chronically lie, they chronically project, they're constantly manipulating, and even their emotions are manipulative and transactional. So when they show tears, That's just as manipulative as the bullying tactics. It's just so strange when you found yourself in that kind of relationship. I think that's why people are so confused, and that's why there are millions of people on the internet trying to figure it out, which is awful.

Jeffrey Besecker: It's interesting to watch throughout all of our relational dynamics, socially, how that act of transference and counter-transference can play out, both consciously and subconsciously. In that regard, do you feel sometimes we leverage that as a defensive coping mechanism where that then becomes that power dynamic? Let's project what I speculate your emotional status. You know, let's sometimes even speculate whether or not a person is narcissistic or exhibiting those narcissistic characteristics becomes an extreme act of speculation.

Shannon Petrovich: OK, yes, that's true. And unfortunately, you know, as we've been talking about that anxious dependent type of, you know, that that reality has been created and we're not standing up for ourselves or placating and peacekeeping and people pleasing all the time. We're setting in motion a relationship in which we don't fully exist. But then we're mad about it. And that's where you have to step back and again. And this is why I've started a new coaching program, a group coaching program, because I think it's so important to do this work. And if you're not doing the work, you are reliving it in so many different ways. You're projecting your own insecurities and then defending yourself against people who might be good people, good people, bad people. you know, people who are actually caring and healthy, unhealthy, healthy, unhealthy. Thank you. And that, so you can be projecting that you can still be missing cues that that person is really unhealthy for you and in their own skin. So that internal work is just critical. Um, because otherwise we're showing up, not whole we're showing up with all those defenses and with our systems on fire.

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Shannon Petrovich: I think that speaks to still being in that fight, flight or freeze mode. And a lot of times people feel like if they switch into the fight mode, then they're healed. But that's still the same. You know, if you think about people who are really the strong people in your life, they're not boastful and brash and mowing people down. They're not bulldozers. They're actually just like calm, strong in their own skin, in their own thoughts, feelings, wants and needs. They can express themselves without mowing people down or blasting people, and so that's what indicates that someone's really healed, but that angry bombastic combative place is just the fight part of the fight, flight, or freeze, and it's honestly no better. Well, I guess it's a little bit better because you're defending yourself, but it's really not healed because you're still living in that awful state of mind.

Jeffrey Besecker: So often from my perspective, we can observe where those individuals linger in that defense mode. Now I'm on the affront. Now I'm trying to invalidate that entire experience. It becomes that kind of attack mode in that post-mortem, dare I say, phase where the relationships died, yet you keep perpetuating that lingering energy. Right. Yeah.

Shannon Petrovich: And it's it's so sad because then people feel hopeless. and fall into despair and depression and anxiety. And a lot of times I've, you know, met with a client and they will say that they have depression and anxiety thinking that, you know, it's just a chemical thing. But in reality, they've lived through so many toxic relationships. They're just literally still lost in the fog of many of the early ones in their lives. You know, I've worked with 70 year olds who are just now looking at the toxic relationships of their partner that passed away decades ago, but we still carry it if we don't heal from it.

Jeffrey Besecker: We're about midpoint in our conversation. I'm going to note that today. And so often we reach that midpoint in our healing journey where we fail to draw that line in the sand and say, now I'm moving forward. I'm going to earmark that today by saying, at that point, what role do you feel healthy ego development plays in enabling individuals to avoid emotional monitoring, form a healthier future-based self-concept, and form healthier interactions after their narcissistic abuse?

Shannon Petrovich: Yes, and so ego development is, I would define it as recognizing that a lot of times we didn't do that work as a child. So in the early days of our childhood, we internalize a lot of stories about ourselves, about others, and about the world, and then we carry those stories into adulthood. And oftentimes that includes a lot of self-deprecating belief systems about, you know, if you grew up in a lot of chaos, you may feel like you're a burden. If you grew up with people who were not loving, you feel unlovable. And that's the way kids think, you know, that it's all about them and that's normal. So we have to fill in those spots because we take those self-beliefs and we beat ourselves to a pulp with them for the rest of our lives until we stop. until we look at it. So it's really critical and part of my book and my coaching is that we identify the critical voice in your head. What kind of things are you saying to yourself? Would you talk to your best friend that way when they're down or struggling or upset? when you look at all those messages and look at where they came from, like we're not born believing those things. That was something that we internalized from our experiences as kids. So we have to look at all those and then we have to actually take a step back and ask ourselves what we do respect about ourselves. You know, I'm a caring empathic hardworking, fun person. Those are the truths about me. The other stuff, worthless, useless, whatever, all of those phrases are untrue, but they're what I brought from childhood. So we have to look at those two things and that's how we rebuild ourselves from the inside out. That's the actual ego development that's not egotistical. People get confused about this and think that If we feel good about ourselves, we're becoming narcissistic. Complete opposite. A narcissist is actually a fragile, empty ego that they cover with a facade of boastful thinking. They're all that.

Jeffrey Besecker: We talked about that a good deal in our past conversation on narcissism, looking at that whole entire spectrum of traits and how we can at times exhibit those narcissistic traits and characteristics without moving into that full-blown experience of narcissism. I'm just going to earmark that. If you want to reference that, go back to the past episode. In that regard, moving on, do you feel we often sometimes derive that power unconsciously that we feel we're building as that foundation moving forward by using others as that stepping stone? You know, we exhibit that tendency to kind of bash and kind of counter abuse in order to feel empowered to move on.

Shannon Petrovich: We do, we get stuck in that need to beat up on somebody else because we've been beaten up emotionally and that's just as unhealthy. So it's really important to recognize that that's not the solution. I did a video once called, so you want to get revenge on your ex. And so a lot of people hit on that and then they found out I was talking about forgiveness and moving on. And a lot of people are like, wait, what? But the best revenge is none. I mean, that that trait is part of what got you there, because the difference between being self-absorbed or self sort of lost in a little bit of self-development and narcissism is that narcissists hurt other people when they don't get what they want. regular empathic people who have narcissistic traits or whatever, they don't hurt other people when they're not getting what they want. They usually take a step back and look at it differently. They don't implode and explode and take hostages and torture like a narcissist will. So that's the difference. But yeah, we need to look at that in a holistic way and learn to plug in and restore from a higher perspective and not controlling other people.

Jeffrey Besecker: In that regard, I feel from my perspective, it's essential. We point out that the intention isn't to invalidate that former experience and everything that came along with it, but to acknowledge it, accept it and move forward in that empowered forward future based action.

Shannon Petrovich: Yeah, very well put. That's exactly what we want to do. We're not invalidating our emotions at all, but we're comforting and calming and soothing those emotions so that we can actually move forward with our whole self on board instead of living in that continual drama triangle where we're you know, the victim, the perpetrator, the lost child, we can just get spinning and spinning in that triangle and never emerge. And real healing looks completely differently. It's restoring and recharging from a higher source and then living in our full selves.

Jeffrey Besecker: In that regard, psychological states such as enmeshment and entanglement often contribute to that hypervigilance as we mentioned, leading to that tendency to continue to engage those control dramas even though we've departed that relationship. As a result of that, I want to backstep a little bit here. Sometimes that tendency is to adopt characteristic traits like aloofness, ambivalence, dismissiveness, and indifference as we unconsciously erode our self-concept by impeding our ability to form healthy relationship self-perceptions and establish emotional available relationships going into our future. Considering those factors, aloofness, ambivalence, dismissiveness, and indifference, How do those character traits hinder our ability from your perspective to establish not only our healthy self-concept but to form emotionally available relationships post-narcissistic abuse?

Shannon Petrovich: Exactly that aloofness that shifting basically from that attachment style of dependency to that attachment style of disconnection and sometimes even shifting all the way into the chaotic and the chaotic is I. attach completely and then I detach completely and then I attach completely and then I detach completely and you know obviously it's really hard to create a relationship based on that somebody feels like they're on a roller coaster with you and a healthy person is going to go yeah maybe not So we have to recognize that neither of those are healthy. They're two sides of the exact same coin. And that's not secure attachment, dismissing and being aloof and detached. Again, it feels stronger than the other. And I do teach. people how to emotionally detach enough to see the circus go by so that you're not taking other people's manipulations on so quickly. You actually can watch and notice and go, oh wow, there's that. Oh wow, there's that game. Oh wow, look how they switch to that. Because a person who's manipulating you will switch from thing to thing to thing And a lot of times people will say, are they bipolar because they're so moody? No, they're just figuring out which hook is going to sink and which hook you're going to bite on. And so they'll try the tears and the guilt trip. That's not working. Try the anger. That's not working. Try the manipulation of projecting that you're you're cold and uncaring. You know, I mean, it can go on and on and on. The number of games is just infinite, really. And they'll figure out a new one if none of them work. So you have to recognize that in somewhat of an emotionally detached state. But you sure don't want to camp out there and live there for the rest of your life. That's a horrible place to be. And I've seen it. I've seen people whose narcissistic relationship ended decades ago, and they will never engage in another one because it hurt too much. It was too confusing. It made them feel awful. And so they're just done. And that's a really sad state to be in because it doesn't need to be that way. Again, your goal is not to then learn to trust everybody. Your goal is to learn to trust yourself as you rebuild, as you reclaim, as you get to know yourself and really like and respect yourself. And then you can engage in a relationship and you will see the healthy ones coming and you will see the unhealthy ones coming and you will be able to set boundaries and not get drawn into something unhealthy again.

Jeffrey Besecker: Those four characteristic traits, aloofness, ambivalence, dismissiveness, and indifference, surface throughout our entire relational dynamic throughout our social structures in very subtle ways. All interesting points that we're going to approach soon in upcoming episodes. I'm going to earmark that. If you're a regular listener, stay tuned. We've got more coming on that. As we look forward again toward that future perspective, The autonomic ladder in our central nervous system play three key roles in forming healthy associations and strong bonds of interconnectedness, acting as a regulator of our psychological response, facilitating emotional connection and enabling energy flow. You know, all of that from a certain perspective, the basis of healthy relationship dynamic, as we'll soon learn. What role might the autonomic ladder and its impact play in an individual's health and their ability to form healthy relationships and associations in general.

Shannon Petrovich: It's really critical and we have to learn about our own. Each of us is an individual and although we share a lot of the same kinds of autonomic issues, we're each different too. So we have that survival system, that emotional system, and when those things are kind of the more primitive systems, and then we have our rational mind. And those three aspects, they call it the triune brain. And when the survival system is firing off, then the emotional system gets involved. And then oftentimes, it's kind of a feedback loop. So whereas it's not just survival, it's like we're messing with our own mind over time. Like, oh my God, this is my fault. Oh my God, this is never going to end. So we're actually feeding that survival freak out. And this is what people often refer to as a panic attack. It's really just our emotions and our survival system on high alert on fire and feedback looping internally. And when you understand that, you can say, okay, it's not like I just got hit by lightning and I'm having a panic attack. It is. my own internal systems that are gone haywire and I can take charge of those. I can actually self-calm, self-soothe, ground myself with strategies and coping skills that I teach in my book and in my coaching that calm down those systems so that you can then use your rational mind to run your life. Those emotional systems and survival systems do not run your life well. They help you run down through the jungle and escape a cheetah, but they do not run your life well. You cannot make good decisions from that place. And the other really bad part of that is that when your emotional system is trauma bonded to that person. And so you will actually get dragged back into that relationship over and over again. I did a video called why follow your heart is the worst advice ever if you're involved with a narcissist because your heart or your emotional autonomic heart will stay attached to that person just like heroin. And it will want that person and want that person until you calm that stuff down, make a rational decision, and then walk through that rational decision with your emotional system kicking and screaming. And you literally have to say, no, you really don't love that person. That's not love. That's attachment. No, you're OK. You're going to survive this. just stop reconnecting with that person over and over again and then have your rational mind on board.

Jeffrey Besecker: It's such a thoughtful way to illustrate how both that sympathetic activation and dorsal vagal shutdown process through that autonomic ladder, how that contributes again, you know, to our fight flight responses and also forms the basis of our avoidant coping mechanisms during that emotional activation in those emotional control drugs. throughout that cycle of regulating or modulating our emotions. Grief often is a part of that cycle, would you not agree?

Shannon Petrovich: Absolutely. It's really, really important that we recognize that emotionally we are attached to that person. And it isn't just that person, it's again our emotional ramping where we feed that and oftentimes we're more attached to our idea For that relationship than the actual relationship or more we were we fell in love with the idea of this person and the idea of how this is going to play out in our lives and be long term and all that stuff. And so it's really, really hard for us to let go of that. And we do need to grieve it. And grieving means that sometimes you're just in disbelief. Sometimes you go into that place of, well, if I just did this, this and this, and I just stopped doing that, that and that, then we'll be back in that love place. No, it was never love. So it's really crucial that we let ourselves grieve and we don't get sucked back in to that relationship. And then sometimes you'll heal and then that person comes back around and wants you again. And you have to recognize that that's another phase of them wanting you as a supply for their emptiness. And you have to say, wow, they want me again because I'm no longer bankrupted internally. And I'm not going to let myself get bankrupted again.

Jeffrey Besecker: So often we look at that concept of grief in the hindsight view, you know, you grieve the loss. Yet at the same time, subconsciously, we start to experience what's known as anticipatory grief, where we start to speculate our grief about a future event. A lot of times that's running as a subconscious script or story that we're not even fully aware of.

Shannon Petrovich: And a lot of people will say, I couldn't live without them. I couldn't live without him or her. I just couldn't. So they're doing exactly what you're talking about. They're projecting how they would cope if this ended. And they're completely undone by that thought. And they can't conceptualize that at all. And when you can't imagine yourself better in any way, shape, or form, then you can't move through that process of grieving. Well, you can't move through the separation. A lot of times the relationship ends because that person discards you or ghosts you or detaches from you. And then you go through that devastation and grief, but often it's you needing to disconnect from them. And it's really, really hard to even conceptualize surviving that when you have trauma bonded that powerfully to that person.

Jeffrey Besecker: So often we get caught in that inner control drama within ourselves. between that anticipatory grief and anxiety or that anticipatory anxiety where we're starting to project. That's a key role to moving through that cycle. Right. Can you give us from that perspective, a brief overview of how this can inhibit our ability to reframe our self-concept post abuse?

Shannon Petrovich: Yeah, I think it is all very much intertwined that when we lose ourselves, as we lose ourselves more and more and more and more, you know, in the early months, we still have connections to other people, our family, our friends, our jobs, our passions, that kind of thing. But over time, those get whittled away. as the narcissist demands all your time, all your attention, all your adoration, all of it. And so, you become less and less able to connect with who you are and what your life is about. As that happens over time, then you're emptied out. and emotionally bankrupted, sometimes financially bankrupted by this person too. And when that realization… So you feel so empty and then your only infilling is the breadcrumbs they give you, which is not sustainable or they give you just enough to sustain your life, literally your emotional life. And so you're living on those breadcrumbs. So the idea of letting go of that breadcrumb is unthinkable. And yet, if you can calm down those emotional and survival systems and get up into your rational mind, you can say, wow, my life before was not like this. I felt differently before this happened and I really want to find myself again and really integrate this experience and move past it.

Jeffrey Besecker: Finally today, emotional modulation or regulation is our ability to maintain a healthy window of emotional, mental, and psychological tolerance to our internal and external responses. I'm going to kind of bullet point that. To conclude today, Shannon, could you summarize or give us tips on how emotional regulation, emotional modulation plays an essential role in forming our self-concept, a healthy self-concept, post-narcissistic abuse and how that contributes to us forming healthier future relationships?

Shannon Petrovich: That's a great way to summarize it all. And again, we talk to ourselves inside our heads something like 40,000 times a day. And how we talk to ourselves very much defines how we feel about ourselves and how we experience the world. So we first have to address the toxic relationship within our own minds, within our own selves. If you talk to yourself in a way that you would never say to anybody else, you really have to step back and work on that. And that's that's foundational, that has to be the starting place. Then learning how to modulate, like listen to and notice and feel your emotions without letting them run the show. Because we just don't function well from that emotional perspective, making decisions from that emotional perspective. Do not follow your heart if you are attached to a narcissist, that's the worst thing you can do. And then, you know, take the time it takes to heal, really heal from the inside out so that when you go into another relationship, you feel so solid and strong that your creep-o-meter fires off when it should, and you can connect with other people when they are healthy and capable of having a good interdependent relationship with you.

Jeffrey Besecker: I want to thank you today, Shannon, for your infinite wisdom and insight. I feel this has been an infinitely empowering and enabling conversation for those who are moving through this phase of healing and growth. Thank you for sharing that with us today. Namaste. The light in me acknowledges the light in you.

Shannon Petrovich: I appreciate you having me on, Jeffrey. It's always enlightening to talk with you.

Jeffrey Besecker: Thank you. I look forward to sharing future conversations with you, not only on narcissism, but also on how we develop that healthy self-concept. So thank you again.

Shannon Petrovich: You're welcome. Thank you.

Jeffrey Besecker: Healing, of any sort, can be a journey. In the immortal words of TV psychiatrist Frasier Crane, whether our journey lasts years or just a day, I can't tell you how excited I am to take this first step with you, acknowledging the immense strength and resilience it takes to navigate the emotionally treacherous path of healing from narcissistic abuse. These relationships can leave us shattered, with our esteem and tatters and our sense of worth shaken to the core. The emotional, mental, and psychological toll is often overwhelming, and it's perfectly normal to feel lost and broken in the aftermath. But remember, it's in these moments of darkness that the seeds of transformation are sown. As you embark on this healing journey, please know that you are not alone. If you found meaning in this episode, please share it with a friend or loved one. We're grateful to walk this and every journey with you, our valued listening community. And as always, we're grateful for your continued support as we all discover and rediscover… The Light Inside.