Clear as The Nose On My Face: Engaging Body Linguistics for Effective Emotional Competency

Episode 118 Complete Transcript

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[00:00:00] This is the light inside. I'm Jeffrey beaker, your body. It's your home unique individual and universal all at the same time. Yet the way we communicate throughout our bodies often signals very different and unique meanings for others to interpretate through our ongoing process of evolution. The way we innately process information is an ever changing.

[00:00:28] As humans adapt and change to meet today's demands. This dance is a never ending spiral of forces and systems. Each of us playing their part in this evolution. And at the core is consciousness, consciousness, and choice making are closely interconnected. How we apply our consciousness in how we make our choices, influences the systems we live.

[00:00:52] They deeply influence how we also connect and communicate with those we interact with on a daily basis. Body linguistics empowers us to zoom into this core of consciousness, accessing the body and its physical intelligence as an emotional antenna, feeding us the very signals of our being. Today we tune in to discover how to effectively leverage body linguistics to more joyfully build and foster emotional competence.

[00:01:19] When we return to the light inside.

[00:01:33] Jeffrey Besecker:

[00:01:33] As human beings, body language is one of the most powerful forms of communication we possess through this fully embodied approach. Physical behaviors, as opposed to words alone are used to express or convey essential information, both within ourselves. And as we interact with others, such behavior includes facial expressions, body posture.

[00:02:03] Gestures eye movement touch in the use of space, a state known as social relationship. We all know the implications when someone expresses the need to just please give me some space. Empathy is often believed to be the most essential quality of our human civilization. Yet. If we fail to read the signals necessary to develop emotional competency and intelligence, our ability to interact with our emotions and those of others, significantly diminishes causing us to lose our innate intellectual ability to think reason and live rationally and as a resulting outcome, our entire somatic experience of head, heart, body, and soul becoming dis.

[00:02:49] We move into states of chaotic emotional limbo, as we fail to make any functional sense of these decaying signals. Join us as we speak today with quantum consciousness accelerator, Janet Schmidt. Her combined curiosity with science and healing modalities inspires continuous self-learning. So she may share her wisdom teaching with others.

[00:03:12] I'm excited to finally get to talk with you face to face and look at how we can start to understand some of our facial expressions and communicate better. As human beings. Yeah. You know, ultimately that's gonna be the overriding theme of this conversation. Do we, you have 80 seconds. Yes. I've had 80 seconds.

[00:03:31] Janet Schmidt: okay. So what I'm gonna have you do is what the summarize used to do before going into battle to center themselves. It's called the one point. Okay. Okay. 80 seconds. So I'm gonna ask you to just sit back in your chair. Okay. And I want you to take a deep breath in and close down your eyes. And now I want you to take all the thoughts in your head, all the thoughts and all the feelings that you have in your head.

[00:03:57] And I want you to bring them down, down, down,

[00:04:04] Jeffrey Besecker: down,

[00:04:05] Janet Schmidt: down. So they're two inches below your navel down, down.

[00:04:14] And now from that point, I want you to see a bright light. And see that bright light flow down your legs and to the ground, to the center of the earth.

[00:04:34] And now you can open your eyes.

[00:04:36] Jeffrey Besecker: Fantastic. that is such a rush of refreshing energy. Yeah, it's

[00:04:44] Janet Schmidt: a reset it. I call it emotional resilience reset that I do with my clients. And I thought that might help you. With everything that you're going through. Yeah. That might help you. So when you start feeling like you did before, just do that reset.

[00:04:58] Just take everything down to that point and have it flow down into the ground. That's actually called the horror point and the S used to do it prior to going into battle, because if they had all the thoughts up here, they'd be top heavy. Yes. So if they pulled them all the way down, they could be centered and harder to knock off their.

[00:05:16] Jeffrey Besecker: Hmm. That's amazing. Yeah. Thank you for that gift. That was so awesome. You're welcome experience. . You're welcome.

[00:05:26] Janet Schmidt: You're welcome. I hope I'm as ingenious in your conversation today.

[00:05:31] Jeffrey Besecker: So that was such simple, brilliant. Sometimes we need to look at the complexity of life at others. We just simply need to let it all go.

[00:05:40] Janet Schmidt: So when you feel what you were feeling before, and you have to go into your show or you have to do something, you can just take 80 seconds and do.

[00:05:49] Jeffrey Besecker: Mm, that's amazing. Yeah. From that perspective, I have to ask this question because my curiosity is open. What is the significance in the 82nd timeframe?

[00:05:59] Janet Schmidt: Because a lot of people, they don't meditate. Yes. And so they can't focus on meditating. So if I say to somebody, Hey, this is only 80 seconds. You could do anything for 80 seconds, right.

[00:06:12] Jeffrey Besecker: Tends to chip into that autonomic programming that we say, where is the shortcut that offers you? Yes. The shortcut to simply get onto the path.

[00:06:22] Janet Schmidt: Yes. And so, because I have. Uh, um, some linear clients I found, especially working with business people. I found that this was a quick reset and they can use it in any given situation. They can remove themselves from a meeting or something where it's just too much. They can go into an office. They can even go into a bathroom stall, do this and come back out and be refreshed and be clear mind.

[00:06:45] Jeffrey Besecker: Awesome. Well, thank you for helping to guide me towards that moment of clarity. It was much needed today. Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome. I'm glad we had this rolling to get this portion today. One reason why I automatically launch into all of my conversations on record, because it could be capture every moment of that authentic interaction.

[00:07:10] Sometimes that can be a little unsettling. sometimes it's a surprise. Oh, we're recording already. But we get the genuine, full breadth of our conversation. We don't tend to kick into those programs as quickly. Right. Sometimes we do kick into those programs and that's a great moment to acknowledge what might that fear be?

[00:07:30] Simply seeing that little green light that says go. And I think this case with a red light right lives on my end on zoom that says go, but that little light, sometimes we see that light. And if I'm seeing it as a red light, that says stop, oh, kick into that autonomic reaction. Also that requires that 82nd of center.

[00:07:49] So that's a great moment to kinda earmark. Thanks for bringing that up today.

[00:07:53] Janet Schmidt: yeah, you you're welcome. You're welcome. And by the way, I don't even, I don't even pay attention to the record thing. I'm just I'm I'm just here. That's

[00:08:02] Jeffrey Besecker: great. so you, you, that shows great command of your sense of volition and authorities you've been off on a sidetrack, but it's been a great sidetrack to yeah.

[00:08:13] Yeah. Bring our focus back a little, if we okay. yes. Yes. So as we start to look at viewing our emotions, I'm gonna mm-hmm start there. Let's reset and reframe for that. When viewing how we share our emotions, we frequently express this as wearing emotions on our sleeve. Yet it's often looking toward our facial expressions that we discover the most about what others are trying to communicate.

[00:08:42] Janet, with that in mind, let's begin by looking at how facial expressions are simply another form of communi. One which is learned imprinted and programmed within us. Yes. Where is it that we begin to learn these mannerisms inherited within our programmed patterns?

[00:08:59] Janet Schmidt: Oh, well, if you have an understanding of epigenetics and its broader sense, so I'm gonna bring that up epigenetics in its broader sense.

[00:09:07] So if there's any scientists out there listening to this, I'm talking broad sense will be . OK. I'm saying broad sense. OK. I have a friend who's a scientist and. It's the imprinting pass down or the coding pass down from our ancestors that go to our parents and our parents pass it to us from birth to about eight years old.

[00:09:26] After that, it's our friends as society, anything really catastrophic that happens to us that dictates our belief system, our behaviors, our thoughts, our emotions, and our traditions, and et cetera, et cetera. But. This is what does formate, I mean, if anybody thinks, why do they walk the same way as their father?

[00:09:47] Or why do they have the same expression that their mother has on their face all the time or something like it's inherited. It's something that, that has been imprinted in you. And so this is part of. How we communicate. So the more we can examine ourselves and be really Frank with what's working and what's not working.

[00:10:09] And I'm talking about even our outer self and how we express ourselves, right. Then we can dissect and then we can start changing what is working and what's not working, but it is imprinted in a coded Inness.

[00:10:24] Jeffrey Besecker: In that regard, we can see how we learn so much by observation rather than instruction. Yes.

[00:10:31] That's an interesting area for me to look at and say, let's pay attention to that. What are we simply watching and mirroring parenting patterning? I say parroting because I just shared a great conversation discussing how some of that parroting surfaces in our parenting.

[00:10:48] Janet Schmidt: Yes. And I love that you bring up parenting because we can start examining what our, you know, how some people say I'm not gonna do what my parents did.

[00:10:58] Yes. I guarantee you there's still attributes. . That they might wanna change if they really sat back and looked at it. I know for a fact, before I knew everything that I know today and went through this, that there are some things that I would've definitely changed. Raising my three children, by the time I went through all this, my, uh, I, my youngest child is 28.

[00:11:26] So by the time I had gone through this, I was like, okay, well, I'm doing the best I can . But I would say to, uh, your listeners, that it's a good time to be a student and examine yourself or. Be the scientist going to the laboratory. And I want them to understand, know that it's limitless. You can change.

[00:11:46] Whatever's not working. You're not stuck with, oh, well, my mother did it that way. And I guess it's ingrained in me. No, you can change it anytime you want.

[00:11:53] Jeffrey Besecker: That's important to me to say, just simply learn to love that experience for what it is. Mm-hmm, be grateful if there's a lesson in it. If that lesson points you towards some kind of trauma programming or some kind of emotional conflict pattern.

[00:12:08] Yes. Simply bring that into your awareness and explore

[00:12:11] Janet Schmidt: it. Correct. Go into the feeling and find out, go into the feeling. go into the feeling as, as, as uncomfortable as it may

[00:12:19] Jeffrey Besecker: be, because it doesn't always have to be uncomfortable. Sometimes we can make friends with that. yeah. Whether we're uncomfortable or not just simply feel it for what it is.

[00:12:29] Yes. I agree. So as we look at these programmed patterns, How do they then contribute? Not only to our belief systems in forming them, but our pattern mannerisms as well. How do those start to surface?

[00:12:45] Janet Schmidt: Well, actually they start to surface, you know, as you brought up, they start to surface at a very, very young age because we're mimicking what we see.

[00:12:54] Right. We're mimicking everything we see. And so that behavior, or we'll see our parents get angry and they use a certain facial express. Right. And so that's how everything slowly starts to form. I believe that's what your question is. That's kind of what it slowly starts to form. And then as we get to 8, 9, 10, it's really watching society cuz our, our parents aren't with us all the time and we're out.

[00:13:23] And our parents by eight years old, they've already imprinted us with what they.

[00:13:28] Jeffrey Besecker: From that perspective just gradually are slightly grazing that idea from my knowledge, that's somewhat stored in our autonomic portion of the brain where those automatic patterns start to just happen. Yeah.

[00:13:42] Janet Schmidt: Yeah. The other thing people need to understand is that as we go through life too, we store information differently.

[00:13:50] We can store it in distortion. Mm-hmm right. And distortion. When it's what creatives use writers use directors use and invent use, but we also use distortion in creating our future. And why am I bringing that up? Because usually when we're kind of thinking about that or working on that, our eyes will float up to the right, because that's a visual we're creating visual.

[00:14:18] And it's called I access queue. So somebody kind of goes up to the right. And so it's important to understand generalization is another one, how we store information. And that's, that's like if I looked at a German shepherd and it was aggressive towards me, it's like, when I say all German shepherds are aggressive, so you're labeling everything as generalization.

[00:14:39] And I would say, this is my opinion. I think in this world, we have too much generalization and then there's deletion. And deletion to me is when somebody's still visually remembering. So they could float up to the left or they could look directly at you, but they're deleting information that could be valuable around them.

[00:15:01] So it's like if you go into a conference and a speaker's up there, but everybody at your table's talking, you can tune out all the people at your table and laser focus on the speaker. Now, but if you do that in other situations where there's some valuable information coming in, well, it can be pretty

[00:15:21] Jeffrey Besecker: damaging.

[00:15:22] So from that perspective of that kind of subjective generalization can one then draw upon this as a potential source of emotional reactivity, where we, since we learn how we feel we should respond.

[00:15:36] Janet Schmidt: Absolutely. Because all of these ways that we store information have an emotion to 'em have an energy, a frequency to them.

[00:15:45] And so you communicate it. I mean, let's face it and let's just get down to it. Only 7% of what we communicate is our, our language 93% is your body is your energy is, is the inflection in your voice, in all of that. And so, because we inherit some of what we show in our emotion and in our feelings, the other, we kind of learn along the way.

[00:16:14] But either way only 7% is language and 93% is gonna be nonverbal. And I can give a really good example of that. If I asked you to help me with a fundraiser and you said yes, but your eyes and your body looked like a deer, cotton headlights. I mean, it's, you just told me yes. 7%, but

[00:16:36] Jeffrey Besecker: 93% mouth says yes, but the body says yes.

[00:16:39] Yes.

[00:16:41] Janet Schmidt: That's why it's really important to watch what people, when you're in front of people, what they're truly communicating to you,

[00:16:48] Jeffrey Besecker: you've shared how linguistics is the language or nonverbal communication indicating our state of being in both mind and body mm-hmm in our previous interaction, what information is stored in our unconscious thought?

[00:17:02] And how does it begin to surface in our emotions?

[00:17:05] Janet Schmidt: Well, it's, it's also in your language pattern. So if people listen to it, they can, you could really uncover because we're not paying attention all the time because we're on autopilot with our subconscious, right? So because our subconscious runs 95% of all of us.

[00:17:22] So because we're on that role, we're not even understanding. Uh, at points of what we're actually communicating. And so it's unconsciously that we're communicating different things. It's just like the example I gave you of being a deer caught in the headlights. You might not even know that you were like that.

[00:17:42] Right? So that's an unconscious reaction because you had no idea.

[00:17:48] Jeffrey Besecker: We just shared two great episodes. Each exploring how the word no. And also the word not. Are so subconsciously ingrained through us and how that starts to shift your expression, your perspective on life, nearly every level of your energy, those two very words.

[00:18:08] Yes. Ultimately becoming kind of an. Form of experiential avoidance that we tend to turn into as our pattern right. Of interaction.

[00:18:18] Janet Schmidt: Yeah. Well, remember that, even our words. So this is like an unconscious thing, too. Our words have certain frequencies, the words we use have a frequency, they put it out there.

[00:18:31] I mean, Einstein said, you know, put the frequency out there of the reality that you wish for and you can't help, but bring it to. And he said he went on to say, that's not philosophy. That's physics. Yeah. So you have to understand when you're talking about these words, it, it, it sends out a frequency when you use them, not only when you use them, but when you use them inner in your inner self, when they're in your thoughts.

[00:18:58] and that can affect you in your outer expression.

[00:19:01] Jeffrey Besecker: It takes that inner energy to first form that you think that's fascinating because it starts inside. Mm-hmm . Everything is energy at its core.

[00:19:13] Janet Schmidt: Mm-hmm what goes to the name of your show? The light. Inside or it right.

[00:19:19] Jeffrey Besecker: Goes back to that. Yes, it does. yeah. Goes back to that.

[00:19:23] And that was a very intentional thought.

[00:19:28] so you mentioned the effect. I action. I. And cues, as on how we receive this emotional information from others. Can you share a bit more with us about this phenomena and how it plays out?

[00:19:42] Janet Schmidt: Well, so I'm gonna go over quickly. So if you're looking to the left side, upper left, you're visually remembering. If you're looking to the left to the side, right.

[00:19:55] If you're looking up, it's visually remembering if you're looking to the side it's auditory, right? Yes. And if you're looking down, it's kind of like self-talk inner self-talk, but it's it's present. So if you're looking down to the right it's, esthetic. If you're looking to the side of the right, it's going to be creating audio.

[00:20:15] If you're looking up to the right, it's going to be creating visual. So now I'm gonna get to why that's important. If I'm telling you a story of how I went to the Eiffel tower and I'm explaining everything that happened there. And while I'm telling you, I'm looking at you straight on, but many times I look up to the right, I float up to the right.

[00:20:35] I guarantee you. Part of what I'm saying to you, I kind of created it didn't really happen. And this is why it's important. It's like if you ever look at a child and they're making up a story, they're probably looking a lot up to their eyes are probably floating a lot up to the right. And. I don't, I don't wanna say that.

[00:20:55] That's always what it is, but pretty much 80% of the time. That's, that's what it means. If somebody's looking straight at you, I want you to know that they're just visually remembering everything that happened. Um, but it's also important to understand, because you can watch your children with their eyes too, and you can figure out how they learn.

[00:21:13] Are they a visual learner? Are they kinesthetic? Are they audio? You can really take this really down the line. If

[00:21:20] Jeffrey Besecker: you. So I'm curious, does that in some way co-relate instinctively to what area of our brain might generate that pattern of

[00:21:31] thought?

[00:21:32] Janet Schmidt: Oh, well that's a good question, but it depends on what it is.

[00:21:36] Like I always say. Trauma. I don't go into necessarily how the brain works because that's not a place where I studied in depth, but I can also say that for instance, trauma, if we're remembering trauma or our behavior with trauma, right? So I like to use that because it's our behavior. It's how we react to trauma is held fragmented in our mind in different parts of our mind, in our memories.

[00:22:03] And so the reason why people have a hard time getting past trauma is because they're left cortex and their right cortex are not in an agreement on how to heal. They find it crashed. And that's why I'm a big fan of. EMDR or eye movement integration, EMI I'm, I'm certified in EMI and I'm I'm have great success with that.

[00:22:26] With somebody who's had trauma in the first session, uh, where they, I can bring 'em down at least 80% from where they were. And what that does is it BA basically brings the left cortex and right cortex into a whole brain state. On the healing process and now they may still remember the trauma, but they're desensitized from it now and it, and they begin to heal.

[00:22:51] Jeffrey Besecker: So in that sense, you're kind of bringing that somatic experience back into alignment, back into congruency mm-hmm . And to me, you know, this is kind of a stab out there that makes sense then how that connects to our FAUS nerve interaction. Hmm.

[00:23:09] Janet Schmidt: Yeah. I understand where you're going with that. Uh, the, I, I think it's also important to understand that.

[00:23:18] Anybody who's had trauma, anybody who's had trauma will, if they start to sit back, they'll be able to really decipher which section it is. If they go out and have help. I really can't comment on, on what you

[00:23:32] Jeffrey Besecker: just said. I'm gonna leave that one out there. Just kind of as a consideration, you know, I'm forming my own opinion on that, and that's just simply opening that door of curiosity that says maybe.

[00:23:43] That bear's looking at.

[00:23:45] Janet Schmidt: no, that's, you know, you know what I would say? I would say, I would say, I would say that too. I'm not qualified to talk on that. So there

[00:23:53] Jeffrey Besecker: again, it's not right fresh in my mind, and it's not something that I'm currently present with. I'll put it that way. You know, I've got my own views and opinions on expertise.

[00:24:03] Information is out there for all of us. Most of it's already out there. . If we simply open our eyes and look, you know, as we speak about our eyes and communicating what blinders might, we simply put over the fact that most of it's already out there

[00:24:20] Janet Schmidt: well, you know what? I agree, 100% with you, because what I always say is, you know, success in every area of your life is real and it's obtainable.

[00:24:31] But the power is in your hands. Mm. So I agree. 100% with you, you have to go out and you have to search for

[00:24:38] Jeffrey Besecker: it. . So, as we're looking at these ideas of communication via the eyes, yes. How can understanding how you or others process information will give you additional clues to what an individual is communicating?

[00:24:57] Janet Schmidt: Well, It goes back to the example I showed you was basically, you said yes, but really you were saying no. And so the, when if you have a body that when I say you wanna help me and you say yes, but your whole body says, no. Well, when I see that, I'm like, oh, maybe not. Maybe not, but what I would say further to this, when somebody can really sit back and start watching not only their own way, they communicate with their eyes and their expression on their face, but when you start looking at everybody else, it gives you the emotional intelligence to create a strategy.

[00:25:37] Within yourself on how to work with different people. Because at the end of the day, we all come from a different epigenetic background. And if you can understand that and understand that everybody comes with different behaviors, different traits, different belief systems, then you can create the strategy and an understanding.

[00:25:58] And knowledge about where that person is from and, and where they're at. And therefore you can create the strategy within yourself on how best to move forward in any

[00:26:10] Jeffrey Besecker: relationship from that perspective of, we each tend to have our own kind of signature, so to speak. Hmm, how then might we start to be a little more open and not overread some of that, you know, for instance, we see those eyes shift can that sometimes be misread as an eye roll that's signaling something different and we are communicating two things.

[00:26:37] Might that sometimes just be the pattern response, even when it is an eye roll and might they somehow be incongruent in what they're trying to communicate? Yeah. I,

[00:26:48] Janet Schmidt: I, under I really understand. That's why I said to me it's only 80% of the time when you kind of roll up to the right. Right. Um, I think that brings us all back to when you're a child and you're growing up and you see how your parents have facial expressions and you can adopt.

[00:27:05] If you have a parent that says, okay, when you're talking to somebody, you're always talking straight, look, 'em straight in the eye. I mean, I, how many, how many times have we heard that? You're gonna look 'em straight in the eye? Well, that child is now programmed to always look at people straight in the eye.

[00:27:20] So you're correct. There are times where it can be like that because. As I said, we are still programmed. And so depending on how you're programmed from childhood, that could be ingrained in you. I know people who have

[00:27:32] Jeffrey Besecker: that, you know, and that's a very essential fact. We look at today as we get ready to move into a conversation about how those who are on the autism spectrum.

[00:27:42] Oh, or automatically kicking into a mode where they struggle to establish eye contact, right? That's one instance where we might misread that cue, misconstrued or form, maybe a misinformed, I'll say connection to what is being communicated. Right. Also looking at how shame through trauma might come into play, where that.

[00:28:06] Downturning of the eyes. Mm-hmm is a verbal cue of that trauma experience being shamed and not being able to hold that eye contact

[00:28:16] Janet Schmidt: potentially. Oh, I agree. 100% with everything you said. I think that trauma victims will look away. I agree with you. It's not always somebody looking forward. I think, I think when people.

[00:28:28] Have that shame, they will look down or they have a hard time looking somebody in the face and it's not only be, it's not some people will think, oh, they're dishonest. And that's a, a read that a lot of people have. If somebody can't look you in the eye and that's not true, you don't know what's. Yeah. You don't know the journey that, that person's gone on to where they feel uncomfortable looking somebody in their eye.

[00:28:53] And it's also. An intimate connection. When you are looking somebody in the eye. I want people to think about that. It's a very intimate connection that you're having with the person and, and for some people that's really uncomfortable,

[00:29:07] Jeffrey Besecker: you know, that brings to mind that saying the eyes of the window to the soul mm-hmm are we simply opening the window and opening our own window?

[00:29:17] Removing the blinders. To just be curious, rather than trying to read ahead, do we simply allow the communication to connect and genuinely flow?

[00:29:29] Janet Schmidt: Yeah. Yeah, it's true. And that's a really valid point, but I think the more people can examine, not only themselves examine yourself first before you start examining everybody else.

[00:29:41] That's my suggestion in the work I do. I always say, you know, Be the scientist going to the laboratory. You are the laboratory, examine it first, and then you'll have a better understanding of everyone outside you

[00:29:57] Jeffrey Besecker: bringing up all these euphemisms today. That reminds me then back to that saying, remove the plank from your own eye.

[00:30:05] before you view another, you know, yes. What is that plank there? Cloudy in your vision and how do you just simply remove it to remain open and receptive, acceptable or accepting? Not acceptable. That's moving into judgment phase, accepting and vulnerable, both to yourself and to others. Agreed. So the mannerism in which we stored information in our brains plays a vital role in how we communicate to what effect does this take?

[00:30:38] You know, how does that information start to store?

[00:30:42] Janet Schmidt: Wow. It starts to store from my sense, it starts to store in your behavior in your, I, I mean, I work both in quantum physics. And epigenetics. And so to me, it stores from the minute you're born. So when you ask how it's stored, it's it's autopilot, it automatically goes into your subconscious.

[00:31:03] It's already stored in there. And so that's why I say, look at if you're doing a loop all the time, or you're having the same facial expression, like when you were talking about that, start exploring, changing that up if, if that's what you desire. So if you're looking down all the time, discover what it is go into as we.

[00:31:26] Go into that feeling, go into that experience and decide, is this something that I wish to change because I'm noticing this pattern, but everything, the way it's stored is automatically in our subconscious mind. And that's why it's so hard to break.

[00:31:44] Jeffrey Besecker: Sometimes we just simply step into that frame of reference, where we allow ourselves to see things with brand new eyes.

[00:31:52] Yes. As we started this conversation today, myself being somewhat emotionally clouded by experiencing events, a little heart heavy today, maybe a little distracted, that simple closing of your eyes to reenter return to your source, bringing all that down within and simply releasing it. Mm-hmm to open to a new view, a new world.

[00:32:16] Yes. I'm gonna get poetic with it today. that's

[00:32:20] Janet Schmidt: that, that was very, very beautifully said. Okay.

[00:32:25] Jeffrey Besecker: That was my Disney moment today. We're looking for a whole new world. Sometimes that world is never really any different than what it always is. I wanna thank you for this brilliant conversation today. Have we missed any points along our path in this

[00:32:43] Janet Schmidt: journey?

[00:32:45] No, just. I see to anyone, if there's any part of their behavior, their traits, their thoughts. All of that has an energy frequency too. And so if anything, isn't working for them, you know, you can change it. You know, you can have success in any area of your life and you can literally reprogram yourself. And that's what I would say.

[00:33:10] You know, I, it's something that I specialize in, in reprogramming, helping people reprogram what's not working. And it's success is. In every area. And that's what I'd say. So, and I tell people know that it's limitless.

[00:33:26] Jeffrey Besecker: Everything is infinite. Thank you. Thank you for bringing that brilliant insight to light today.

[00:33:32] I am so for you, Janet. Thank you. Bring such a lovely experience.

[00:33:37] Janet Schmidt: Thank you for having me. Now you have the one point.

[00:33:43] Jeffrey Besecker: I also thank you for that brilliant gift and lesson. As we launched into our conversation today from the bottom and top every area of my heart today. Oh,

[00:33:52] Janet Schmidt: you're welcome. And it was, it was my pleasure. It was my pleasure. Thank you actually, for having me, it was fun.

[00:33:59] Jeffrey Besecker: Next we learn what it's like when reading the expressions of others.

[00:34:03] Isn't so clear when we return to the light inside.

[00:34:13] At times many of us get the message that our emotions are not okay. Something to be constantly held in evaluation and judged. And even at times to be feared, shamed, and even neglected. If we're angry, we're told to calm down. If we're sad, we're told to get over it. So we end up repressing our emotions or pushing them away, making us feel inauthentic, unmotivated, depressed, or worse.

[00:34:43] According to mark bracket, founder of Yale university's center of emotional intelligence and the author of the book permission to feel. This is an often made MIS assumption. You see our emotions are important clues to how we are experiencing the war. Helping us make decisions, build good relationships, fulfill our aspirations and cultivate wellbeing.

[00:35:06] Through the empowering research of mark studies, we learn how to become emotional scientists rather than emotional judges, their findings. Having shown that emotional competency is predictive of truly important life outcomes. Emotional competence refers to an important set of personal and social skills for identifying, interpreting, and constructively, responding to emotions in one's self.

[00:35:32] And as they interact with others. D term implying, ease an emotional self-regulation, which then determines one ability to lead and express effectively and successfully people with higher emotional competency tend to have greater psychological health are less anxious and less depressed or less burn. At the end of the day, they tend to make better decisions in life while having significant improvements in quality relat.

[00:36:01] Progress quicker, academically and acclimate effectively within career environments. The evidence suggests that emotional competency interacts with all variables influenced by mental intellect and personality traits. They form a set of skills that really matters in shaping how we each experience our day to day lives.

[00:36:21] All traits, which become relevant as we consider their significance in regards to what is typically assigned to mindset it's within this regard, emotional competency becomes an integral part in our daily interaction with others, allowing us to remain emotionally. Self-regulated. So what happens when an underlying condition renders this task with a greater degree of difficulty, it perhaps becomes more challenging to read the body linguistics of another.

[00:36:54] We often turn to eye contact and reading the facial expressions of others when forming a meaningful, emotional connection with them, which often leads to difficulty in understanding our emotional interactions with. With every interaction, presenting the potential for challenges, as we consider this, there are certain conditions and experiences which make this especially hard.

[00:37:17] Take for instance, when we feel anxious or in the case of those who experience such conditions occurring in individuals who register on the autism spectrum, researchers have claimed being in a state of anxiety, makes it harder to read the emotions of. This leading to difficulties when interpreting their facial expressions, while people with greater tendency to be anxious, have been found to have a greater sensitivity to faces, showing fear.

[00:37:46] It is unclear whether such effects exist among people who experience a situation that triggers anxiety. Facial emotional recognition is a part of the domain of social cognition, which further includes social perception, emotional competency theory of mind, and attributional bias in social cognition appears to explain more variance in functional outcome per.

[00:38:11] Such as community functioning when compared to neurocognition, our ability to register emotions is impacted by our ability to maintain eye contact, monitor facial expressions, and communicate effectively for those with autism eye contact. Isn't just weird. It's often very distressing as a result of suffering from mild Asperger's Nathaniel Nova cell experiences, specific challenges in his social interactions, Nathaniel experiences, these challenges as problems, initiating eye contact and reading facial expressions, which forces him to rely on extraneous means to determine the emotions and intentions of others.

[00:38:52] Nathaniel, if you would share with us a little bit about your personal background.

[00:38:56] Nathanael Novosal: So I, it professionally I, uh, work as an advisor at Gardner. Um, I don't talk about that usually on the podcast though, cause I don't represent them, but in my spare time, Uh, I study psychology in a variety of other fields.

[00:39:10] Yes. And I wrote a book called the meaning of life, a guide defining your life's purpose, where it identifies the eight driving factors from evolutionary psychology that leads to human sense of meaning and purpose. But when I was interacting with your, I guess your, your manager, uh, your coordinator, she said, oh, well, you know, we're going in a different direction with this thing.

[00:39:27] And I said, well, yeah, I mean, I wrote the book and I could talk about a variety of things within it, but. Um, you know, the thing that most people kind of attached to from a human interest piece is that I have mild Asperger's it's not like, yeah, not, not really hard. It's just kind of a, in between introversion and Asperger's and it's just stuff I gotta keep aware of.

[00:39:44] Like, I gotta make sure I'm making eye contact and, and I gotta remember to stop talking once in a while and stuff like that, but, but that's, that's the background for today. Fantastic.

[00:39:52] Jeffrey Besecker: Yeah. I feel like that's where we had. The biggest connection with this conversation, we're leaning into looking at how we relate to each other through our facial expression, through our body language and through our emotional intelligence.

[00:40:05] Ultimately, how do we develop that as an effective tool? Mm-hmm to form better communication and interaction with each other. So once we break that eye contact in what might be going on under a lot of circumstances, from an energetic level, you know, what's going on in the SUBC. And then individual in this case, then that ties us in with that connection to the Berg spectrum mm-hmm and the autism spectrum.

[00:40:30] You know, that's a, an interesting level because a lot of times I feel we form those assumptions that this person isn't truly engaged. This person is hiding something. This person is. Trustworthy. We form a lot of speculation and projection as we communicate with each other, as we connect with each other.

[00:40:47] And a lot of that's formed on the basis of our past condition pattern mm-hmm . So we're gonna look at tying that in. You brought in a great scenario here where we look at one case where we illustrate specifically how you have to surrender those assumptions. Mm-hmm to truly be open, to trust another and be vulnerable to that.

[00:41:09] For many people on the autism spectrum, avoiding eye contact. Isn't a sign that they don't care. Instead, it's a response to a deeply uncomfortable sensation. They experience Nate as someone with Asperger's syndrome, you face challenges, reading the emotions of others. Can you share with us how those challenges present

[00:41:29] Nathanael Novosal: themselves free?

[00:41:30] Sure. So I have to read emotions through the. Body posture. I can't look at someone's face and understand what's going on. In fact, uh, I saw once there was an exhibit where they had a list of just eyes people's eyes and say, it says there was a little title said to read my face and I was looking at it and I was like, I have no idea what those people are feeling just by looking at their eyes.

[00:41:50] Apparently everyone else just intuitively, oh, they're surprised. They're scared. I'm. How did you get that? no idea. And so, um, yeah, so it's, it's really a matter of trying to read, like, if someone's screaming at you, I use, uh, the volume, the voice, the nature, the voice I use, like their posture towards you, or they're leaning in, or they move back.

[00:42:07] But I can't. Tell from just a facial expression necessarily, unless it's like extremely obvious, like if their eyes are like wide open or something like that, or their, if their face is beat red with anger, like, okay, I can get that. But, um, yeah, without looking, cuz I'm not always able to look at people's faces very frequently cuz it's still overstimulating.

[00:42:27] Um, yeah, you have to use other cues. So as

[00:42:30] Jeffrey Besecker: we look at that, many of us are closed off to our own feelings in the emotional experiences of other people in a lot of regards as a result. One can often make very quick snap judgements about how people feel based on their facial expressions in their body language.

[00:42:46] As we consider this, it comes to our attention. How eye contact is particularly challenging for those on the spectrum. When people with autism avoid eye contact, what are the underlying

[00:42:58] Nathanael Novosal: causes? Yeah. I mean, the way I used to describe it before I even knew I had Asperger's was my brain was screaming at me.

[00:43:04] That's why I called it. And it never occurred to me that no one else felt that way. Like the average person until I was doing a presentation training. And I said, yeah, my, I, I, I try to do it. But then like my brain screaming at me and they're like, I don't know what that is. And I was like, Oh, my God. I'm the only one who experienced well compared to a regular person.

[00:43:21] And so it turned out that when I make eye contact, it overstimulates my brain. And, and um, because I have a lighter autism to, I'm not I'm higher on the spectrum. I can actually describe it. Unlike someone who was extreme, who couldn't describe it, cuz it couldn't communicate very well. But I know exactly what it is.

[00:43:37] It's just like my brain entirely lights up. Like it catches on fire. I can't pay attention to anything anymore. I can't. Think my thoughts. Um, and that's why people who are on the extreme side are, you know, completely paralyzed, uh, when they get overstimulated. So, yeah, it's just a matter of, uh, eye contact is really hard.

[00:43:54] I call it holding my breath now. So like, uh, to, to mimic regular behavior, I make eye contact, but when I'm making eye contact, I have no idea what someone's saying. So like it's ironic because most people, they think when you're making eye contact and nodding your head and stuff that you're listening to the person.

[00:44:09] When I'm making eye contact, I'm not listening to the person. Cause I have no idea what they're saying. Cause I can't, I can't function. Uh, so then I look away and I can hear them again. and I can pay attention. So, um, I, instead of, uh, doing the opposite, what most people do I look in people's eyes just long enough.

[00:44:23] So they think I'm paying attention and then I look away so I can hear what they're saying. I

[00:44:26] could

[00:44:26] Jeffrey Besecker: see where that presents such an interesting challenge because you're starting to lean into a totally shifted pattern. I'll say shifted. I don't wanna try to put too much implication on there by saying different, but a shifted pattern where your process is differentiated from someone else's.

[00:44:44] I find it interesting to discover, as I read through a center of biomedical imaging. At Massachusetts general hospital study on the effects of eye contact, where they said it was revealed how an overactivity of theoral brain structure. Were the underlying costs, you know, and how that resulted from that direct eye contact.

[00:45:08] That was interesting to me to see that that was actually going on as a part of this normal process. And we're gonna look at that a little bit in depth later on in the overall conversation, but I found that really interesting. That actually presents itself as that kind of burning sensation or that kind of actual physical sensation as you actually make that eye

[00:45:32] Nathanael Novosal: contact.

[00:45:33] Yeah. And it is weird because like, I actually think that the, uh, spectrum, it goes from like, cuz you know, there's extroverts and introverts and then they have autism spectrum. I really do think if I had to guess that it's probably one huge spectrum and that extroverts are on one end and extreme autistics are on the other end.

[00:45:48] And it's based on how much external stimulation you can handle, cuz extroverts, a lot of external, they actually want external stimulation. Introverts need to recharge by being by themselves. Asperger's where I'm in between introvert and Asperger's, um, they look kind of like introverts, but then they even have trouble with the social interaction.

[00:46:05] And then as you go further and further down, it becomes almost unable to function in normal, uh, society, because it's cuz society itself is so overstimulating with like sirens and things like that. Yeah. It's interesting.

[00:46:16] Jeffrey Besecker: So often we lean on a lot of those condition beliefs around personality in that regard, you know, introvert extrovert, some of.

[00:46:26] Being in and of itself, just a condition belief through the environment, through our experience that can, in this case become a limitation. It illustrates how sometimes as we surrender some of those beliefs, some of those self-limiting beliefs we hold onto, we start to see things in a new light. We start to get a different perspective.

[00:46:47] We

[00:46:47] Nathanael Novosal: start

[00:46:48] Jeffrey Besecker: to also realize how that can lead to some of our emotional reactivity. Based on our

[00:46:54] Nathanael Novosal: past condition. Yeah. I, uh, there are a list of challenges that I've personally faced that I've learned to figure out how to address. Right? So like the first one is people think you're a jerk, right? Yeah. , that's the number one thing.

[00:47:08] They just think you're a jerk cuz you don't make eye contact. You kind of shift around, you kind of stay away from people and you don't like to be touched, you jump 20 feet if you do. And that kind of thing. So you, um, and, and you also don't make a lot of facial expressions usually. So I've overcompensated for that, by doing the complete opposite, you know, they call it masking.

[00:47:24] I don't, I don't use that term, but that's the one that people use where you basically put on a show. Right. So I jokingly call it being a standup comics. So I tell jokes, I make wide facial expressions and I move around a lot and get super animated. And it's all just, uh, I don't wanna call it an act like I'm fake, but like it's all a way to try to, you know, bridge the gap between how I would wanna normally act and how.

[00:47:45] Wanna accept me as a social human being. And so, yeah. So I try to bridge that gap that way. Um, but yeah, when I was a kid, I, I, I don't know how many times in your life anyone's ever called you Marose, but I swear it's probably happened to me like hundreds of more times than you because I just sit my normal, my, my normal state is just sitting there completely expressionless and just staring, like staring at a wall, staring at the space and like, oh, what's going on?

[00:48:09] You look deep in thought or your mirrors. I'm just like, no, I just don't have, you know, I don't, I don't need to express myself all the. Just, I can just sit there and that's fine. Um, yeah, I've gotten pretty good at it where I'm able to overcome the challenges by making eye contact as frequently as possible.

[00:48:22] But I have to remember it every time, uh, you know, finding a way to like talk, like kind of, I call it holding my breath. So yes. Look away. Think about what I have to say and then try to look back while I'm talking and then look down and like try to do it as much as possible. And then there's. You know, in terms of, as I mentioned, like, people think you're most, or people think you're boring.

[00:48:42] I mean, that's another one I get all the time. Like I couldn't hang out with someone for more than five minutes before someone saying they're bored. It's just like, you know, I, I don't know what to tell you. I don't, I I'm I'm I'm, I've got all kinds of stuff going on in my head. I'm not bored. Yeah. But, um, but yeah, so you just kind of identify the typical things that people perceive as a result of interacting with you and you being different and you just try to account for it and, and, um, and try to make sure that it's not, uh, I guess overtly obvious that, um, that, that you have these,

[00:49:09] Jeffrey Besecker: uh, differences to me, there's a certain level of insecurity that comes into play.

[00:49:15] On a societal level there where we're conditioned to constantly be monitoring for those things. We learn a lot of that in our pattern behaviors, where everything becomes a yard stick, where we are measuring that kind of ego reaction to our own insecurity. You know, when we look back on several of our past conversations with neurodiverse individuals, we've learned that.

[00:49:41] It's just simply a different way of experiencing and being just like, we all experience any number of other of our behaviors from our own

[00:49:52] Nathanael Novosal: perspective. And so I know that you were, um, interested in talking a little bit about, um, becoming more attuned to the emotions of others. It's, it's so funny because, um, I actually, you know, some people call their, you know, situation superpowers.

[00:50:06] Right. And it's that idea that it is kind of like the idea that like, if you, if you lack one sense, then your other senses become heightened. Now they've shown in psychology that that's not literally true. It's not like you're like Spider-Man or something in one area and you get all these sense, but like, because you practice it more.

[00:50:22] Yes, it is a lot better because. To use it more. Um, and so, because I have to use all these other ways of assessing emotions and these other things, um, my, um, uh, my ability to actually sense what's going on in different ways has become heightened. So I can sense when, like there's a certain situation like, oh, someone's really upset and they're looking for this kind of thing.

[00:50:44] And I can start to become attuned to like what people actually are looking for. And so, you know, it's funny, cause I actually ended up writing a book, like, uh, talking a little bit about what drives people's sense of meaning and purpose in life. And I asked myself the question, like, would I have been able to write that book if I didn't have Asper?

[00:51:01] And the answer is no, because I wouldn't have been able to logically break it down to these component parts cuz no one in the history of the world's ever actually done it in the way that I did. And I, you asked yourself why and it's because people don't look at the world that way. They think they think about feelings and emotions and, and people and how you can inspire people.

[00:51:18] And I'm just sitting there, like, you know, you know, like a Spock, you know, like cold calculated, like this is how it works. And, you know, because you know, Asperger's are very famous, um, for, uh, trying to understand how mechanisms work, which is why they're always in engineering fields and computer science and things like that.

[00:51:33] Cause they, they can understand how things work and you know, that becomes a gift. So you have to, you can use that and I kind of use it. You know, like a life hack and try to understand and break down why people do things and you can come to actually a better understanding of certain things than other people so much so that people, other people might not even know what you're talking about when you, when you identify a cool thing, but it's only because you're unable to get the obvious stuff.

[00:51:55] That's just kind of right in front of you by someone's facial expression that you learn so hard and learn so well, how all those other, uh, triggers or, or signals might be, uh, sent out.

[00:52:05] Jeffrey Besecker: Notion and of itself of superpower can be a slippery slope. You know, we somewhat stigmatize that notion that somehow pushes it out beyond us.

[00:52:16] I know this is kind of a left turn into an entirely different conversation. Not necessarily maybe do we go down that today, but as a society, you know, guiding us back to this conversation, we often look at eye contact as that sign of basic respect and trust. And when it's not present, we often feel challenged to establish.

[00:52:38] This level of trust and understanding with others, share with us. If you may, a few of the effective ways you've discovered to overcome this limitation with your experience with Asperger's.

[00:52:50] Nathanael Novosal: Yeah. It's, it's interesting because I, I, I, uh, wrote a Quora post. It's the most popular one I've written where I talk about what it's like to have Asperger's and I do talk about like superpowers.

[00:52:59] I do talk about feeling like an alien and, and a robot or whatever, and everyone, you know, it's the highest, like thing I've gotten. . And, um, the weird irony is that like, people think you're lying, but at, with Asperger's you generally tell the truth. It's really hard not to, like, you have to really jump through some hoops to get to like saying something that isn't factually correct.

[00:53:21] Um and so, uh, yeah, so you're generally really honest, but people think you're a liar cuz you don't make eye contact cause it's like, no, I swear. I I'm. Basically incapable of lying, but, uh but, uh, but yeah, um, sure. If, uh, you know, the eye contact makes, uh, is your signal for trust. Sure. Um, but yeah, you, you really have to, um, you know, do certain things.

[00:53:41] So like I found, for example, that it's easier for me to make eye contact or at least perceive, be perceived to be making eye contact further. I'm standing away from someone. So if you put up. Furniture and things, and you have, you're sitting a little further away and then you can look at someone a little bit more easily.

[00:53:55] It's a little less stimulating. I'm not really sure why. I don't know if there's some sort of, you know, correlation between distance and, and your stimulation, but, um, but I've found that that works, uh, really well. Um, I do find like making jokes and things like that can, can, uh, do that or, or like overcompensating by like making wild ex expressions and things can kind of get you as, uh, as part of the group and so forth.

[00:54:15] Um, but I think my biggest. Is I turn everything into a story that kind of helps. Um, there are, there are two reasons for that. One is that if you have Asperger's, you're likely to really care about stuff that other people don't and have really specific areas of interest. And therefore you talk forever about it and you don't know when people are bored, cuz you can't tell.

[00:54:34] So, uh so turn everything into a story and then it has beginning, middle and end. So you'll end at some. But then by constructing a story, which is what most humans relate to, um, you then can engage them a little bit more. So there's stuff like that, that you have to keep in mind as you are, uh, as you're interacting with other others, to make sure that like, from their perspective, um, that there's nothing, you know, and I, you know, off about you or there's, there's nothing that's gonna gonna do that.

[00:54:59] And I know everyone we're kind of in a world today where it's like everyone has to cater to the, you know, to, to the vulnerable or whatever. I, I don't buy into that. Like, If someone feels more trust, if you make eye contact. Yes. To some extent, if you can tell 'em, Hey, I've Asperger's, then they'll be empathetic with you and go, okay.

[00:55:13] I won't use that as the gauge, whether you're trustworthy, I'm fine with that. But like, I wouldn't like expect someone to bend over backwards. Um, because then there's a fine line between bending over backwards to Pease you and like. You know, pitting you. Right. and so I do think you should try to meet them halfway.

[00:55:28] Right. And try that. It's like, okay, so you expect me to behave in this way. Okay. I'll try my best, uh, to do that, but just realize that it's very hard for me. So like, if you can meet me halfway, that's fine. So that's usually how I address it and, and people are, are pretty good about it, but yeah, I try not to lead with it.

[00:55:41] Um, unless it comes up as an issue because, um, yeah, people, you get start to get a stigma attached to you and that becomes a problem. Yeah.

[00:55:49] Jeffrey Besecker: So often as a result of the stigma, Individuals on the spectrum are viewed as a hurdle to be dealt with rather than a unique opportunity to simply learn a new perspective.

[00:56:01] Seeing through another's eyes in this regard comes to mind for me, you know, Nate, would you say that your Asperger's experience has made you more sensitive to the emotions of others as you pay attention to

[00:56:14] Nathanael Novosal: them now? Yeah. So if you are. You were kind of just mentioning there about, um, you know, what you're able to sense.

[00:56:21] And I think that that interaction with others, what they can gain from people to Asperger's is that people with Asperger's, first of all, they're honest. So you can get their honest opinion. You might not like what they have to say, but they're gonna be honest, uh, you know, the, the whole, like, do I look fat kind of question.

[00:56:34] Great person to great, uh, uh, question to ask someone Asperger's, I'll tell you the truth. uh, but I'm kidding, but, uh, and, and in all, um, in all seriousness, Yeah. Uh, if you wanna understand how something works, like some sort of how a mechanism works, you always, you can ask someone with Asperger's. They probably have this really detailed understanding of how things work.

[00:56:53] Um, they're very detail oriented. They may not see the big picture or whatever sometimes, but, um, but they definitely are looking at all the things. If you want an interesting perspective on like, um, Like, if you're thinking about a concept or idea, um, you know, they might have an idea that comes seemingly out of left field, but they're really looking at how everything breaks down and they're trying to optimize and like, this is the way it would optimally work.

[00:57:14] In fact, there's that Ted talk. I always forget that lady's name, but there's the, the, the most famous, uh, Ted talk with the. You know, the on Asperger's was from someone with Asperger's and she, um, redesigned all of these, um, I believe they were horse stables. They might be some other form of stables on a farm or something.

[00:57:29] And, uh, it was cuz her Asperger's, she could design these things optimally. So if you're looking for, um, How to do things or optimizing things. That's the perspective you want to get from these folks? Uh, I wouldn't necessarily push anyone. Like how do you feel about this or this sort, that sort of thing. Uh, pretty good.

[00:57:45] Stay away from that kind of stuff. I mean, yeah. Everyone, you know, wants to express their feelings and so forth. But, uh, you know, a lot of stuff that people think are interesting or keeps the social lubrication going. I find very boring. And just like, I wanna talk about how this works. I wanna talk about how that works.

[00:58:00] I wanna talk about that. It, I, when people talk about a situation, I don't wanna talk about the events, what happened. I wanna talk about why this thing happened and not that other thing and how it resulted and all that other stuff. I wanna look at the mechanisms of the, or the mechanics of the interaction, um, and that, that much more interests me.

[00:58:16] So that's the kind of perspective that. That you want to get from, uh, from someone with Asperger's cuz that's the kind of, uh, insight that they get through interactions. Whereas people would be looking more at things like, oh, did you see how that person reacted? Or, oh, did you see what that person, um, how that person, you know, emoted or whatever?

[00:58:32] Like, I don't know. Uh, doesn doesn't really matter to me. So. That's an

[00:58:36] Jeffrey Besecker: interesting perspective to me, because it seems to reveal where some of these condition patterns surface throughout our lives. As we look at that aspect, some of those perspectives when you're on the spectrum are removed in that regard.

[00:58:53] I find that interesting to look at and kind of turn a curious eye toward in revealing how we often do as a society fall into some of those conditioned beliefs. We do turn a little more intuitively natural, which may not fall under that spectrum of intuitiveness and actually align more with kind of a projected bias.

[00:59:17] That's simply surfacing in the

[00:59:19] Nathanael Novosal: subconscious. Hmm. Yeah. There's a, there's a level of understanding, uh, how someone's expressing, how someone's reacting, how someone's reacting to that reaction. There's like some 40 chest there and I called 40 chest cuz that's what it would looks like to someone with Asperger's.

[00:59:34] In fact, uh, I had a colleague, uh, who said that. I, I don't have firsthand experience, but a colleague told me a story about how this other person that he worked with. He had Asperger's. So this other person wore a shirt that was apparently offensive. And, and the thing is that the, I don't know what it said, but apparently the person with Asperger, he didn't mean of offense had no idea.

[00:59:55] It didn't even know why it was offensive, cuz that's the 40 Checo. Right. Uh, and he literally honestly, Why did you think it was offensive? I don't understand. And it was the manager who ended up firing the guy, uh, and said, you know what, it, you know, what it meant, you know, how offensive it was and what, what reaction you were trying to get from people literally had no idea.

[01:00:19] and so, so like, I mean, it's funny in hindsight, I guess, cuz I'm sure that it has to been fine, but uh, I mean it's terrible to lose an entire job just because you didn't understand. This 40 chest going on about, oh, you just said this thing, which someone might take in the wrong way and then get offended and then, and then start attack.

[01:00:37] And then, you know, how could you possibly do that? You're like, like I have no idea what's going on and are you mad and why are you mad? And what's going on? No idea. And then they fire you and it's like, oh man. So you just gotta be, um, Be careful with that kind of stuff because, um, you know, you know, they'll always assume positive intent, uh, uh, maximum.

[01:00:53] I would definitely follow that with people with Asperger's because they'll tell the truth and when it's not socially appropriate to do so they'll say socially inappropriate things and not even know it's socially inappropriate. They'll just think it's, you know, I always joke I could talk about my, uh, my worst childhood trauma.

[01:01:07] Like I was talking about what I had for breakfast yesterday and like that just freaks the heck out of people. I, I know I've done podcasts before where. They, uh, the person I'd say something really apparently traumatic and they were like, oh wow, thank you for sharing that with us. And I'm just thinking like what I, I would, I would talk about that to anybody, like, cuz it doesn't, it doesn't register to me that that's a sensitive topic or that I should feel bad or weird about it.

[01:01:29] Um, and it's just stuff like that yet. If you wanna help someone out with Asperger's you wanna make sure that , they're doing something socially inappropriate, you do one or two things, either one, except the fact that they don't know that it's socially inappropriate, so don't get offended. Um, but then vice versa.

[01:01:42] If like you can help them, like try. Know, smooth it over. Um, you know, and I've had a lot of friends and things who do that. It kinda like if I say something really weird, um, they'll smooth it over some by saying something, um, uh, something more socially, uh, acceptable. And then everyone goes, oh, okay. And then they like, forget that.

[01:01:57] I said the thing that I said, even though it would really freak people out.

[01:02:00] Jeffrey Besecker: So that's an interesting area to look at then how we kind of deem what's authentic in our experience throughout life, how we, you know, demonstrate an authentic emotional intelligence. In our actions with ourselves and with others in that regard, we can also see how we're somewhat conditioned towards that experience of empathy and compassion throughout, you know, that interaction throughout our environmental experience throughout our upbringing and parental conditioning.

[01:02:30] It's interesting to see how then when that filter is somewhat dropped in that regard. It puts a new light on how we perceive those

[01:02:40] Nathanael Novosal: experiences. Yeah. My biggest mistake trying to cover up or, or adapt for my Asperger's is, um, I, I, I don't understand empathy too much. Um, so when I was a, a kid, it seemed cuz I grew up relatively poor.

[01:02:55] So it seemed that commiserating was. Was how you express empathy. So like if someone said they had a terrible time, you say, oh, I didn't know how you feel. I had this terrible thing happen to me too. And then you kind of bond over that. Yeah. Um, but then I went to the, uh, professional world where, uh, everybody was like middle class and I came from lower class.

[01:03:11] And so I was trying to do that commiseration technique to, to empathize. And it turned out that it would backfire. Because it was kind of more of a one upmanship, right. Because they're like, oh, you know, my, my, my parents are divorcing and I go, oh, I know how you feel. My dad disappeared when I was five. And it was really traumatic.

[01:03:28] I totally get where you're coming and they get, would get mad at me. And I'm just like, wait, what are you getting? I'm trying to empathize like, I'm saying, yeah, I know how you feel like, I mean your same spot and meanwhile, they're like, like you're taking away my pain, like trying to one up my pain. I'm like, no, no, no, no.

[01:03:42] I'm just trying to say, I know where, where you've been. So like, I actually, it, it, it's so funny. I would say something and they would like react strangely or not react or whatever, which is, you know, not, not normal for normal people. Uh, and I would just start saying. I'm trying to empathize with you. like, I would literally just say I am.

[01:04:01] And so I just actually started, I know that's a weird thing. Like no one just says that. Um, but for me, um, if someone is expressing pain or whatever, expressing some sort of thing, instead of trying to relate, cuz I knew what wouldn't go over. Well, I would just say. I empathize with you or I can empathize with you.

[01:04:16] And I'll say I've been in a similar situation or I, I know how you feel I've been there too, or something like it's like, you can't get into the details, which is what someone with Asperger's would wanna do, because you know, that's not gonna go over the way that you think, and you're gonna be like, well, why I just said the SA I'm in the same situa, like, I know how you feel, fact I had it worse.

[01:04:33] So like, you should, you should totally feel like, oh yeah, I, I, under this person understands me instead. They're like, What the hell's wrong with you? And I'm like, uh, okay. So yeah, so I would definitely, uh, I just do, I empathize as my, uh, as my go to now to, um, to try to be empathetic. Cause I don't understand what's going on or whether they're gonna react negatively.

[01:04:51] That's

[01:04:52] Jeffrey Besecker: interesting to look at, you know, how we form our notions of empathy, how we start to measure, engage that I've always been curious myself to look at that and say, but how much of that are we simply doing out of obligation to. You know, that sounds kind of a little bit of a sociopathic bent to look at it and consider it in that regard.

[01:05:15] But there are a lot of times where you don't genuinely hold that same experience with another throughout all of our lives where, you know, it might be a challenge to relate because you truly haven't experienced.

[01:05:30] Nathanael Novosal: Yeah. You, you wanna talk about sociopathic? When I was a kid, I used to call a friend two individuals who use each other for mutual benefit.

[01:05:38] Like that's literally how I define friend. That sounds really cynical and terrible so I, I, and it's not untrue, but it's like the most like, like the most terrible way of doing it. There's a lot of social fabric that I now after decades and decades have. Really truly begun to understand and appreciate before I just thought it was stupid.

[01:06:01] But I started noticing, I actually like either by trying not to do it that way or seeing other people not do it that way. I understand now I, I can't, I still can't do it. It's like a, you know, coach who couldn't go in, you know, be a quarterback. Right. But they could coach them. Like I now understand why it all exists.

[01:06:15] Like why small talk exists? I hate small talk. Yeah. But I understand it. There are three things happening with small talk one. Is it the way to start the conversation? Uh, you can't just say. Hey, so, uh, you know, what about, you know, nuclear physics, and let's start talking about that. Like you can't, do you need some sort of introduction to deeper topics?

[01:06:33] Um, second is you get to know the person's personality, understand what they like to talk about in their communication style. It's what they call purposeful small talk. Yeah. So you just make, cuz like maybe they they're short with their sentences or maybe they're really expressive or whatever. You can learn a lot just through the initial small talk.

[01:06:47] So when you get to those deeper topics, you can get. In depth. Uh, and then finally it is like people aren't just ready for that kind of stuff. People aren't ready for conversations. It takes time to get into those things. Whereas I could just start talking about whatever. Um, they need time to kind of ease themselves into those kinds of discussions and conversations.

[01:07:06] So I understand their, I still don't like it and I still don't wanna do it. But. I totally understand. Appreciate now what small talk is, I now understand what empathy is all about and you're right. It, it, I, I've heard a lot of times and it's the cynic in me. The people will say, oh yeah, I don't really care.

[01:07:23] But you know, I have to empathize as part of this social fabric or whatever. I that's a cynical way of looking at it. What's really happening is it's very much a long term. Ethical framework for society. Like you empathize with other people, even if maybe you don't understand or care because you want them to be able to do it to you.

[01:07:39] If you were in a, a simple situation and they didn't understand your care. So it's about the fact. And, and also it's a signal that you actually care about them if you care. I, I mean, I hate to put it this way, but like, if you care about someone enough to lie to their face, uh, to make them feel better, Then you care and by lie, I mean like, pretend, I don't mean literally like tell 'em something false, but like lie, as in, as in deceive them, as in pretend you care enough so that they feel better, that means you care enough about them to be willing, to do a lot of things, um, to, to, to, for their wellbeing.

[01:08:11] And that's what's going on with all those. And that is when you think about it, that way, it's actually kind of super cool before I used to detest it. Now I'm actually fascinated by it. Still can't do it. But, uh, but I do appreciate now why that stuff happens. And I do know, uh, the consequences of, of not doing it.

[01:08:28] It breaks down relationships. We look at

[01:08:31] Jeffrey Besecker: that regard of meeting another where they're at, you know, that does allow that space. For someone who has possibly experienced trauma in their upbringing, in their history, their environment, it allows for recognizing people with different experiences like yourself, who, you know, are on the spectrum and simply saying, but I'm not forming this expectation and projecting it upon you.

[01:08:57] So it's interesting to see how that works then. Throughout our social

[01:09:02] Nathanael Novosal: construct. Yeah. Well, you know, they always say that the best way to prove something is not to prove it, uh, that's confirmation bias. Right. But rather to fail, to disapprove the opposite. Right. so, um, and Asperger's, I, I mean, if there's one gift.

[01:09:17] To the average person in the world for someone existing with Asperger's, other than like all the benefits from, uh, understanding how things work and to make these amazing inventions and stuff put all that aside. Even if all of that, uh, uh, didn't didn't exist, you would still be able to benefit learning about someone from Asperger's to understand how important all the stuff you do every day is, uh, how important it is that you make that phone call to your parents, or how important it is that you go to social events and have these, uh, uh, conversations and parties.

[01:09:43] Yeah, people make fun of parties, but parties are actually very valuable things. Uh, you know, get a bunch of people together. I used to joke. It's like a bunch of people standing around listening to music and drinking alcohol. And it's like, this is, I don't understand. I, I just still don't like it or understand it, but I do totally get the value now, cuz like you meet all these connections, you form bonds and build relationships and maybe you meet your significant other and uh, you're becoming part of group.

[01:10:05] It makes you feel. Part of something it's a great social or emotional benefit and wellbeing, uh, an important part. So like, but the only way you can tell that is you take someone like, like myself with Asperger's and my ability to form human bonds is, is so hard. It's like, it's like the hardest thing in the world.

[01:10:21] I mean, I, I, I might have had like three friends in my life. I mean, I mean, that's sounds kind of sad. Uh, two of them were because I had, uh, uh, I mean, you know, we played football when we were kids and it's like, so we play football together. So I just shut up and just played football and they liked me and it's like, okay, well, that's good.

[01:10:37] so it's like, like as an Asperger's person, you have to really make a call. Like, uh, do you wanna be friends with someone you have to basically there's like the, the easiest way to become friends. If you have Asperger's is to be part of a group, not say much, um, you know, agree with everything people say and have a couple of funny points or cute, insightful stories.

[01:10:56] And, uh, then eventually if you're, if you sustain yourself long enough, even though you're exhausted, uh, people will like you. And like, literally that's how you have to think about it because the, the average, like I'm not just walking down the street saying, Hey, Bob, how are you doing? And we just make small, like, no, I don't do any of that stuff.

[01:11:10] So like, if you don't do it that way, you're almost, it's almost impossible to make a friend. Uh, and so. That, when you look at that you realize how important all that stuff that you might take for granted, or actually wanna do actually enjoy doing like partying and stuff. Um, how important all those mechanisms are, uh, to, uh, human interaction, human bonding, and, um, emotional and social wellbeing.

[01:11:32] Um, they're absolutely essential. And only by looking at someone who can't do any of that stuff or, um, or doesn't want to do any of that stuff, um, that, uh, that's, that's when you really start to see. Hey, you know, I mean, some people like to be alone. Some people like to be alone most of the time, but then MI you know, they, they have to suffer when they do wanna be with other people and then they don't have those, those human connections

[01:11:56] Jeffrey Besecker: feeling interconnected is a basic human need. Essential in its nature, emotional interconnection among human beings, like oxygen for our soul. As human beings, many of us struggle with our emotions, finding it difficult to express ourselves. As we convey our emotions through our feelings, with words, when viewing how we show our emotions, we frequently express this as wearing emotions on our sleeve.

[01:12:24] Yet, as we begin to explore how we utilize our emotions throughout our communications, it's often essential. We begin looking toward our facial expressions. Our greatest insight into others' communication comes from here through our conversations today, we confidently begin to explore how facial expressions serve simply as an unspoken form of communication.

[01:12:47] One which is learned imprinted or programmed within us. We learned how to more effectively utilize this often overlooked nonverbal cue throughout every interaction we take. Transforming expressive cues. Into communication gold. We hope today's show communicated, caring, understanding, and significant meaning.