Narcissistic Verbal Abuse: Navigating Blunt & Non-Blunt Emotional Cruelty w/ Angela Myer

Episode #140 - Narcissistic Verbal Abuse: Navigating Blunt & Non-Blunt Emotional Cruelty

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[00:00:00] Jeffrey Besecker: What are those six ways or. Patterns of behavior, I'll frame it that way, that tend to create what we classically label narcissism.

[00:00:09] Angela: So the six ways are three different parenting types.

[00:00:12] That is the neglectful parent. It is the absent parent, and then it is an authoritarian parent. So neglectful could be like a, a mom that's very vain and into herself, but doesn't have time for the, you know, the kids. She's very self-absorbed, absent is like a c e o or president of a company. They, they're not there, but they give their kid a lot of money, but not attention.

[00:00:35] And, you know, the authoritarian, the really strict parent. And then the other three is bullying, abuse, and trauma. Mm-hmm. . And so when I talk about trauma, um, I've been working with this one young girl in her twenties that has been diagnosed as being narcissistic. And why she is is when she was around 14, her mom accidentally died.

[00:00:57] and that was a trauma for her. But then she got traumatized twice because her dad was in such big grief, he couldn't give her the emotional support that she needed. So she just, she didn't trust people. She didn't feel the world was a safe place and she just shut down. And now she's got lots of anger and anxiety and is, lashing out on, on other people.

[00:01:20] And she realizes it's a really big issue. It's a, it's a serious problem.

[00:01:24] Jeffrey Besecker: And from that perspective, that leads us back to one of those core root patterns that create that narcissism, not feeling our needs being met in a younger age.

[00:01:36] Angela: Correct. Or not getting those Yes, those needs met because, I tell people that the way our parents parented us is completely different than those following generations.

[00:01:48] You can't parent the same way that you were parented.

[00:01:51] Jeffrey Besecker: That is readily apparent to watch and observe. . . That's how I'll frame that. I mean, we can see those noticeable differences, and it's refreshing in the regard that we're now becoming more aware of it and able to change and shift some of those patterns, some of those ways that we do interact.

[00:02:11] So thank you for bringing that up to today. I think that's a great insert. Sure. That also opens us, I think, to six separate episodes In looking at each of those conditions, I feel that level of attention is needed. So . Yeah, . So with that said,

[00:02:30] Angela, in this episode, I'd like to discuss the subtle ways in which we tiptoe up to narcissism through both direct and indirect verbal abuse.

[00:02:40] While healthy disagreement is both a normal and necessary part of human behavior, You shared it in our pre-talk, how everyone will encounter someone who will use direct and indirect verbal reactive abuse tactics in their interactions.

[00:02:55] Let's open up by asking, when it comes to healthy disagreement, where do we draw the line between healthy conflict and verbal abuse? That's a big one. I like jumping in with those big, juicy questions.

[00:03:07] Angela: That is a great question and it is big and juicy because I like to say, healthy people can agree to disagree and healthy people can set boundaries and they can communicate, what their needs are and they can hopefully trust the person.

[00:03:26] respect what they're saying and, and well agree that yes, we need to do this. When it comes down to the reactive verbal abuse, what the person is really doing is they're trying to trigger you into snapping. and the problem is, when you snap , you don't have the ability to make a rational decision or choice.

[00:03:48] You literally end up going from the cortex brain, where that's your rational thinking is, and you go right into your survivor brain and you snap and you react. And that's where a lot of people regret the choices they make and they regret the things that happen. And the concern for me is when you snap, we can find ourselves in a situation that will alter our lives forever.

[00:04:16] and it could be where someone, gets bullied into a, a dare and they end up, going to jail. They end up getting in trouble with the law. or let's say you get, you get pushed into responding or reacting in a certain way that goes outta your normal behavior and it can backfire. And so , my main concern is really wanting to teach people a technique that I created called the End Game that protects you from snapping and allows you to make rational choices instead of having regrets maybe the rest of your life.

[00:04:54] Jeffrey Besecker: We just shared a great episode with John Eli Gure talking about our autonomic ladder and how. Within our central nervous system, we travel up and down those various vagal phases where we're activated, deactivated, triggered untried. , from that aspect, as we learn that healthy regulation, we also learn how to navigate some of these interactions.

[00:05:20] Nevertheless, loving someone doesn't mean putting up with arguments that attack your self-worth and your basic rights that border on that line of verbal abuse. So, verbal abuse is often defined as any spoken, written or gestured. Communication used to assert Manipulative power and control over another with that regard, because it's often used to deliberately humiliate and demean. Might it also be considered a form of emotional abuse?

[00:05:50] Angela: Oh, To me it's a hundred percent emotional abuse.

[00:05:52] And it's mental abuse as well. Because to me, when you really love someone, you think before you speak and you pick your words wisely. When you're being destructive and you're using words that are damaging, you can't take those words back. So like a good example I gave is I really think some of the laws should change about, physical abuse, you know, versus emotional abuse.

[00:06:18] Because let's say you break your arm and the arm heals and it mens and you're okay, you survive that physical abuse, but. You were traumatized mentally and emotionally traumatized by the person that broke your arm. And that can scar you for the rest of your life. And so it's really important to consider how we treat one another and how we speak to each other , and choosing those words because our words can literally be like a knife.

[00:06:45] It's like life or death. You know? Do I support this person or am I just, you know, gonna try to decapitate them with my words? , you

[00:06:53] Jeffrey Besecker: know, that's such a complex area to look at because it can be communication that's direct and blunt, or it can be that passive aggressive and subtler. Yes, form of interaction, form of manipulation, especi.

[00:07:07] Angela: Yes, exactly. So if it's indirect, it would be where you specifically know the person is talking about you when you're in the same room or you're in earshot and it's, it's really bad because there's a part of you that will wanna defend yourself and, and be reactive and say, Hey, you know, I didn't do that, or I didn't say that.

[00:07:28] But really what they're doing is they're baiting you. they know you're there. They know you're listening and I look at it is they're egging you on to take the bait. and then they'll turn around and they'll flip the script and say, see, you're so abusive. Or they'll say, don't you have a sense of humor?

[00:07:45] I was just joking when really they weren't just joking. We can

[00:07:49] Jeffrey Besecker: see this illustrated in a very pronounced way within say, covert narcissism, where that kind of conniving manipulation is very intentional.

[00:08:00] Yes, it is.

[00:08:01] Can we break this down into two different types, known as blunt and non blunt, emotional cruelty, somewhat allowing us to form a deeper understanding of how we leverage this towards other people in our interactions and how it also is received back.

[00:08:18] Angela: the blunt is really hard.

[00:08:20] Yes. And the thing is, is blunt to me is more vicious. because it think about it is instead of grabbing a little kitchen knife, they're grabbing a machete. Yeah. . All right. Because the word is really designed to cut and how deep do I wanna cut you? And so when it's blunt, a lot of people can be shocked and they will freeze and they won't know how to respond or how to react because you didn't expect that to come outta their mouth.

[00:08:51] And it's literally vicious. But when it is, a blunt jab, it kind of, messes with your mind to me. I think it messes with your mind because you're trying to figure out did they really say that? Did they really mean that? And it causes confusion. and because it would be easier if they were just direct and blunt and said it, but when they dance around it or they try to minimize it, but you really know the severity of the blade.

[00:09:23] It messes with your mind.

[00:09:24] Jeffrey Besecker: such a poignant and, salient way to experience that. You know, we, can illustrate that by looking at it as, you know, assault or disrespect. Yeah. Controlling, manipulating and even venturing down that path of, you know invading our privacy.

[00:09:38] You know, we somewhat feel violated or very much feel violated.

[00:09:43] Angela: You do. And I think when it's not so directly blunt at you in your face, it more stumps your mind. It really can stump your mind. And the problem is, is when it is that blunt attack, you're more easily to stew over it and fester on it, and it will keep you awake at night.

[00:10:02] And you're thinking about it, you're thinking about it, you're thinking about it. But when it's like that direct attack, you're not replaying it as much as you did in your mind because now you know exactly what they said. You're not trying to put the puzzle pieces together.

[00:10:16] It's, it's in your face. Yeah. It seems

[00:10:19] Jeffrey Besecker: a little more easily recognized when it is that blunt, reactive, forceful outburst. Correct. Versus looking at that non blunt, which, you know, again, is more covert, a little more Yes. Subtle, perhaps in its nature, in some regards. It's very

[00:10:37] Angela: sneaky .

[00:10:39] Jeffrey Besecker: That's a great way to frame it.

[00:10:40] Yeah. It can be very sneaky, so sneaky bastards, , . Trying, trying to maybe avoid some of the stigma of our own, but yeah, you know, it can be very much that sneaky bastard mentality. So reeling that back. Then that also leads us into how that experience then becomes some of that blaming or bullying, guilting harassing from that regard that leads us into those more covert ways we experience narcissism .

[00:11:11] What are some of the other aspects that might surface in those non-black kind of covert, indirect, abusive ways we do that?

[00:11:20] Angela: Well, it's those, subtle jabs that let's say can undermine you. that make you question your ability, that make you question if I am confident enough, mm-hmm. , am I capable enough?

[00:11:32] And it is, I look at it is, it's a form also of identity erosion. They're chipping away at your self confidence, making you question your reality question, your abilities, question your competency. it could, it could just be an indirect jab where it's like, oh, Susie, you know, Susie's so clumsy.

[00:11:52] She's clumsy all the time. You know, that's direct. But indirect would be like, oh babe, you're just so clumsy all the time. Or they can say to a friend, you know, like, oh, just see, um, you know, they're being clumsy again. And every time that happens, it's like a little indirect jab. , jab, jab, jab.

[00:12:12] To where then let's say Susie, if that's the name we're gonna use, she'll start to question, am I really clumsy? And then if she does do something clumsy, then she'll be like, well, yeah, maybe he's right. Maybe I am just so clumsy when in reality she's not. Hmm. I look at it as it's planting that seed.

[00:12:32] It's a seed they plant in your mind and dissonance basically. Yes. And we can, and we can be the ones that end up watering it because then we start questioning ourselves and we start doubting ourselves. And so we're watering it. And we're watering it. And then when we have life experiences that validate, like that seed that was planted, then it starts to take roots and it starts to show up in different patterns and behaviors in our lives.

[00:13:00] And that's really destructive.

[00:13:02] Jeffrey Besecker: And that often surfaces as uncomfortable humor or where they might actually leverage, oh, I was just joking. Or, that was nothing but a joke. Correct. that essentially is an avoidant behavior to cover up the fact that they're hiding this action. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:13:21] We look at that and it's anything from belittling, mocking, objectifying, or maybe even teasing. You know, we, we call it, you know, that kind of harmless ribbing, but that does have a very real impact on

[00:13:33] Angela: us. A hundred percent. it really does. And that's where, like, I know we all have friends that we know we can do that with and it's harmless, but then we run into those people where, , it's not harmless.

[00:13:49] Where it really is designed to chip away our identity and make us question our reality and to break us down and cut us down. And that's where, it's not fun anymore. Let's just put it that way. It's not a joke anymore. It's not fun anymore. It's, personal.

[00:14:07] Jeffrey Besecker: Yeah. And that brings us down to even that perhaps most impactful level of gaslighting, you know, that buzzword of the year.

[00:14:15] Yes. Share with us from your perspective, your textbook 1 0 1 definition of gaslighting. Let's go ahead and, and dive into that pool today.

[00:14:25] Angela: Well, gaslighting is really about a person making you question your reality. And it's very, very challenging because you can have your point of view of what happened, but they have something completely different.

[00:14:40] and a lot of times they can try to suck other people in and by saying, well, my dad knows you were this way, or you did this and that. And the person that's, you know, the victim , is going, well, do I need to talk to them? And the other person will be like, no, no, no, you don't have to.

[00:14:59] And what's even more disturbing is let's say their father is dead. Well, you can't go and fact check with the father cuz he's passed away. So they're playing that game of they call triangulation where mm-hmm. They're playing the victim. You are the abuser. And the person that knows all about this is, is the rescue.

[00:15:20] and it's a really vicious cycle. And so when you are gaslighted, they want you to alter your reality and they want you to believe that, let's say maybe you did do this behavior that could be considered, uh, offensive or that you're being overly sensitive. But I, I gotta tell you, when anyone questions your reality, if you can fact check it, do it.

[00:15:48] And it is embarrassing. A lot of times it is so embarrassing and so humiliating, the accusations that could be thrown at you, but to save your sanity, sometimes you do need to fact check and go talk to some of your friends and talk to some people you know that really, really know you and, and find out like, was I really that angry person they're saying?

[00:16:11] Was I really? Doing these behaviors that I'm being accused of. And it's hard. It, it is really hard and it, and it is hard when someone gaslighted, gaslights you and then flips it and says, well, you're just so overly sensitive. Or they make that joke, oh, is it that time a month again? And the thing is, is even just by saying that is, is a form of, of gaslighting you, because yes, it could be that time a month, but it doesn't mean you are being irrational or overly emotional.

[00:16:43] Um, and yes, you might be sensitive, you know, during that time a month, but it doesn't mean that that person has to, smear you and label you in that way. It, it's just not fair. It's not right.

[00:16:55] Jeffrey Besecker: And that differs wildly. , if we wanna really break the gist of it down from that more common cognitive dissonance.

[00:17:04] Yeah. Of just simply holding a different opinion, a different perspective, a different view. You know, maybe venturing up to our own biases and heuristics of just how we see things versus literally wanting to control and manipulate the total reality or the total perspective, to the point where someone is actually questioning their sanity.

[00:17:25] It is

[00:17:26] Angela: a vast difference. It is a, it is a vast difference and it's really, it can be extremely damaging because a lot of our identity is, is held by how we believe in our, our belief in ourself. And when you're being gaslighted, that identity can appear to be threatened. because you can ha carry yourself in a high standard and have lots of self-respect.

[00:17:52] But when someone is gaslighting you, they're, they're basically wanting you to, they're trying to destroy your ego is, is kind of how, and your sense of self. And that's why identity erosion is so damaging. Cuz you could be a, with a, you know, upstanding citizen and all that, but then when this person gaslights you, they're trying to make you see that you're, you, you're not that way and that, you know, you're, a mean person or a rude person.

[00:18:20] But although the, here's the key thing is when they're saying those things to you, a lot of times it's a projection. And I know you know about projection, so they're basically, you know, accusing you of all the things that is about Chad .

[00:18:36] Jeffrey Besecker: Yeah. With that said, How we say things matters sometimes, perhaps more than what is said itself.

[00:18:44] Yes. Looking at perhaps how we're framing that again. How do we word or phrase things can be differential. What is the significance of framing within the context of our communication, both verbally and non-verbally?

[00:19:00] Angela: I like to teach the, to pros to a lot of people called the sandwich approach.

[00:19:05] Hmm. Where the bread is the positive, the meat is the issue, and you always end with the positive. It's a, it's a management tool and you always use I statements instead of you. And if you use a you statement, it has to be positive. It has to be positive. And so when you're having a disagreement, let's say with someone, you can.

[00:19:26] Start off by saying, you know what, I really, you know, I really like you and I really, , appreciate this opportunity where we can come together and we can connect. And a lot of times I say too, that when you wanna use a you statement, sometimes use a we, so that's where I, you saw, I just used it where I said, I'm really glad that we can come together and connect instead of saying, I'm glad that you were able to come together and talk to me.

[00:19:52] So you can use we as a different statement. So let's say this person hurt my feelings and offended me. So I would start off by saying, I'm really happy that we had this opportunity to connect and communicate. I really value our friendship and it's important to me. The last conversation we had was rather discouraging and it hurt my feelings.

[00:20:14] and I don't know if that was intentional or unintentional, I just need to let you know how I feel because I care and I care about our friendship. And I was wanting to, as we move forward, that when we have disagreements where we can agree to disagree and that we don't take things personal and if something is really upsetting, one of us, that whenever we communicate, we show mutual respect and common decency.

[00:20:41] I care about you and this is really important, to me. And I hope that, you know, this conversation opens up the doorway for more healthy conversations cuz I've enjoyed your company and I look forward to spending more quality time with you. So you see how I was just talking?

[00:20:56] Yes. I wasn't being rude or offensive. I wasn't using you statements. I was setting the boundary of yes, we need common courtesy. I, and I was indirectly talking about boundaries the whole time, but I wasn't directly saying, specifically saying, I'm setting this boundary with you because you're a jerk and you did this, and you did that.

[00:21:18] If I would've talked that way, the person immediately would put up a shield and wouldn't hear anything. I said,

[00:21:24] Jeffrey Besecker: what an amazingly compassionate and empathetic way to kind of breach this bridge of conflict. Yes. You know, I'd love to relate that back to that old adage, that finger of you did this. You know?

[00:21:38] Right. We, we very aggressively do that. Sometimes we can't witness that, where that pointing finger is like a loaded gun. You know, you, you, you is, you know, every one of those is a shot to the heart. Exactly. I like looking at that. You know, we, we, there again, reframe that you are too sensitive, that, as a common example can be expressed in a more help healthy and empathetic way.

[00:22:02] For instance, by saying, I want to understand how you feel, you know, we're engaging that person with caring in love rather than saying you're too sensitive. Which is just kind of a defense mechanism, an avoidance mechanism.

[00:22:17] Angela: Correct. And a lot of times I'm sure you've heard the same, that when you have a conversation with someone, you're not really listening.

[00:22:26] You're waiting. So you can say what you wanna say. you're not validating what the person has to say. You're not repeating back what the person has to say. And, and that's a real. Key thing is, I could say one thing, but how you perceived it and heard it can be completely opposite. So like, I'll give you a good example.

[00:22:49] One time I said to my kiddo that, you know, Hey, wouldn't it be great if you know when you get home, you get on the treadmill and just walk for 20 minutes? And, um, because you're gonna see your physical therapist tomorrow and I know he is gonna ask you, have you been on the treadmill? So, to make you feel good, I think it would be great if you can say, yes, I did the treadmill yesterday.

[00:23:09] And, um, and the response, when I took that approach, I was being all positive and everything, but when my kiddo shut down and I asked him what was wrong, he said, you just told me I was fat. Mm-hmm. . And I'm like, sweetie, I didn't call you fat at. . That was your perception. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I would never call you that.

[00:23:33] And that opened the door for that whole conversation. So I tell people, when you see someone shut down, even though you were saying something that was positive and was trying to be supportive when they shut down and all of that, it's because they perceived what you said in a false way. And they need clarity.

[00:23:52] They need to hear you make that clarity. Because a lot of times, Adam embarrassment or shame or guilt, like what my son was experiencing, he, um, he perceived it wrong. And I had, I had to flat out tell him, that's not what I said. I would never say that, but that's how he internalized it or perceived.

[00:24:13] Jeffrey Besecker: Yeah. In a lot of ways that's where it's common for these control dramas to be present in our everyday interactions. where sometimes that natural response then might become, I never said such thing, you know, I never said that. You know, we start to then, go into that conflict where we're fighting for that control, for who's right, who's wrong,

[00:24:36] Angela: right?

[00:24:36] And so when you really love someone and care about someone, when you see them shut down, ask for clarification. You know, like, what's wrong? You know? Did I say something that, you know, might, have it interpreted in a, in a way that hurt your feelings? Please tell me cuz I care about you. And see that's the difference between someone spinning back around, that's narcissistic.

[00:24:57] They're not gonna do that. Yeah. Let's be honest, they're not gonna do that. they don't have the empathy. They don't care if they hurt your feelings or not.

[00:25:05] Jeffrey Besecker: From looking at that then from the perspective of when someone's displaying these narcissistic characteristics or traits, these are more pronounced when that conflict is present, especially with those narcissistic characteristics.

[00:25:21] So what effect do you feel these psychological tactics play when our behaviors are driven by these narcissistic traits?

[00:25:29] Angela: I think

[00:25:32] honestly, it can feel like you're a puppet on a string. I mean it, it really can feel like that because your strings are being pulled and manipulated and you can be pulled in a way that would go outta your character and would go out. what you would normally do or respond or react in any way.

[00:25:53] And so for me, really being self-aware and knowing the games and the tactics that are being played against you, it is a lifesaver. And for me, the best way to, let's say, decode and detect someone that's narcissistic and I, I do have it in a podcast, is, watching movies, watching certain shows where people display those behaviors because you can then pause, you can rewind, you can watch it again and again and again.

[00:26:27] Because when it happens to us in reality, it can be quite shocking. And you can, you can. You, you can go into fight, flight, freeze. You can even go into the, the fawn, which is the, the friend mode. You're trying to, uh, please and appease that person. Mm-hmm. And so when you know what gaslighting is, projection, baiting provoking, blame shifting.

[00:26:51] You know, when you know all this, you know, reactive abuse, when you know all those signs, you are better able to respond than react. You're less likely to take it personal, and you then can make healthier choices. And so for me, it's, it's really, really knowing who you're dealing with and knowing what the patterns.

[00:27:18] So, so you had the ability to spot it, because when you don't spot it, you're literally in the dark. I mean, let's just be honest. You're, you're in the dark and, and you won't know what to do. You won't know how to respond. You'll question yourself, you'll question your reality, and you're just confused.

[00:27:34] You're completely confused.

[00:27:36] Jeffrey Besecker: Now, you mentioned with great insight earlier that the idea is to be aware of these ego traps. Yes. And overcome them. from that perspective, it helps to identify these four different kinds of control dramas we typically experience. Can you share with us a little bit about that?

[00:27:53] Angela: Well, the biggest one is, there's. , when you deal with a narcissist, they're, the three patterns that they normally have is love bombing, devalue, discard. Okay. And you can be they can slightly discard you when you're even in the love bombing phase. And an example of that could be where they mention their ex did X, Y, and Z, and Oh, I know you'd never do that.

[00:28:22] So what they're doing is they're grooming you to see if you all do that behavior. So one example could be for, for a woman would be, let's say she's in great shape and she looks really good and he can make a comment about her body by saying, oh, Cynthia never could pull off that dress, but you wear it great and well, I know you're not gonna gain 20 or 30 pounds like Cynthia did.

[00:28:48] You wouldn't do that. Mm-hmm. . And so it's dropping that, it's planting that seed of, well, if I gain a bunch of this weight, then maybe he won't like me anymore. Maybe he'll leave me. Um, and they can use it in ways of what you're gonna wear, what you're going to eat, what you're gonna buy, what you're gonna shop, you know where, where you're gonna go.

[00:29:11] Um, and we've heard stories of men picking out what a woman's gonna wear. He, you know, tells her what she has to eat, he controls her money and all that stuff. All of that really is devaluing. And when you start to push back and you realize that what's happening, then they get mad. And that's where they start, you know, the discard phase.

[00:29:34] And it's really, really destructive. And so when you know those three patterns of the love bombing, devalue, and discard, , to me it's important because even guys can love bomb each other. A guy can totally compliment you on your dress, on the, on your, your appearance, your amazing podcast, all of that stuff, you

[00:29:58] Jeffrey Besecker: know, nice abs man, you know, , that can have a very demeaning effect if it's presented in the right way.

[00:30:05] yes. And

[00:30:06] so,

[00:30:06] Angela: but it's, but it's winning. You know, it's winning you over. Yeah, it really is. I mean, it's like, um, what is it? It's like love growing you, you know? So bro, I love you, but, you know, but then they asked you to do something and let's say you don't wanna go along with that. Well, if you don't go along with it, then they're gonna start to devalue you.

[00:30:32] and then they can discard you because you're, you didn't wanna go along and play with that game. And what's really sad is it can be long-term, it can be short-term, but then they can still try to hook you in again. And when they try to hook you in again, that's called hoovering, like the Hoover vacuum. Hmm.

[00:30:51] They'll just try to suck you back in. It just sucks .

[00:30:54] Jeffrey Besecker: It does. It just sucks.

[00:30:56] Angela: Mm. It really does. It just sucks. And so it's knowing the tactics and the games that they, they play because, a lot, like for me, when I started this whole journey, I was tipped off that my, the person I was dealing was narcissistic.

[00:31:12] And, and when I looked into, . I was like, no, this isn't, the person isn't this way cuz it was your typical, you know, where they had that big inflated ego and all that. The person I was dealing with was the covert narcissist. Mm-hmm. and back then people were just using one label, but there are different types as you know, of, of narcissism and so I discarded it.

[00:31:37] I, I didn't think, you know, I was dealing with this person, but if I was told, look up the behaviors, look at the traits, then it would've been like a light bulb in my head going off. I would've been like, oh my God, I am being gaslighted, I'm being manipulated. There is covers control there, there's stonewalling, there's a silent treatment.

[00:32:00] There was all these behaviors that I would've been Wow. and I didn't know what the words meant. I knew what the behaviors were, but I didn't know the words. And so that's why I want people to learn, you know, their language cuz it really is their language of all the games that they play. And we're not taught this stuff in school or in high school or even in college.

[00:32:26] Our parents don't sit us down and go, now sweetie, we're gonna talk about narcissists today. ,

[00:32:32] Jeffrey Besecker: they don't do that. It's come to the forefront now, , it's,

[00:32:36] Angela: well, we, you know, it took us forever to talk about sex with our kids, but now, you know, now we seriously have to start teaching our kids about the polarity of human beings.

[00:32:47] We, we do because, and that's what I, I talk about a lot is we live in a world of polarity and all of us are gonna encounter someone that is narcissistic in our lifetime. All of us are. And all of us are gonna experience some form of direct or indirect trauma. All of us are gonna, you know, deal with people with a different attachment styles.

[00:33:10] Some of us will experience trauma bonding relationships, um, and, and all of us will experience, uh, you know, reactive abuse tactics. And so when these young people dive into the ocean of the world, they're gonna be swimming with sharks. And don't you wanna give them a life vest or a boat? Cuz some are gonna sink and some are gonna swim.

[00:33:30] We gotta talk about

[00:33:31] Jeffrey Besecker: this stuff. You know, as w Keith Campbell tells us, each and every one of us has different aspects of this five factor model of personality that can at times venture into that neuroticism that can shift through various phases of narcissism, narcissistic characteristics with both beneficial and adverse impact.

[00:33:55] That's a much complex area to look at and it's something we're gonna do in that first segment. So looking back to that first segment, no, that's it. We're looking at both regards to that in that regard. When we swing back now looking at that covert narcissism, so often that's rooted in that controlled drama of, poor me.

[00:34:16] Look what you have done to me. Look at how pitiful I am. Let's look at that a little bit, because I think that's such a pivotal role in this interaction.

[00:34:28] Angela: the, the best way for me to kind of get it is when we notice people that are narcissistic and their behaviors come out, there is a level of immaturity. Let's just kind of agree on that. And when we see that level of immaturity, it tells me it's a sign to me that that's where their, their trauma is rooted at.

[00:34:53] And so that six year old is coming out, or that eight year old, or that 12 year old is coming out, and that's why they're acting so immature and it's coming to the forefront and they're playing these immature games that kids play. And so when it's a covert narcissist, they're very passive aggressive. And it is, it is a very childish behavior because mature adults don't do that to each other.

[00:35:26] We are really not passive aggressive towards each other. We think before we speak. . We have common decency, we have mutual respect, and we really wanna treat, you know, let's say, try to treat people the way that we wanna be treated. You know, it, it's, it's just having, being a nice human being to each other.

[00:35:49] Okay? And so when it's someone that's a cot narcissist, they can be very condescending, they can very sarcastic, and they'll, they'll always, they'll it, it's like you're always a joke and it's, it's truly damaging. and, and to me it's just, it's mind bending when you, when you experience those, because at first it can come off as being playful and you kind of go along with the playfulness of it.

[00:36:20] but when you realize that it's, it's not being playful anymore and you are the joke, that's when it gets really, really serious. And that's where they spin it and say, well, I was just joking. You're being overly sensitive. But no, it's, it's not. And that's the difference between, let's say a narcissist that has that big inflated ego is they'll just be right direct.

[00:36:43] Mm-hmm. , they'll be blunt in your face. But the covert does it in that passive sneaky way where it really messes with your mind, with your, with your sense of self. And so it's always making you, you know, question your reality and, and your worth. who you are as a person.

[00:37:04] Jeffrey Besecker: And they're very much stuck in that regard again, in that wounded inner child response.

[00:37:10] They are, yes. Triggered trauma reactivity.

[00:37:14] Angela: Yes. Thank you for saying it that way, . Cause it's a triggered trauma reactivity because of, you know, that that immature kid that comes out and is, is, is doing that, that behavior. and that's why I tell people a lot of times we, we need to be trauma informed.

[00:37:33] We really do need to be trauma informed because those behaviors can be triggered by, by trauma. And let's say for example, you could Dr. Wear a certain shirt and not even be aware that that shirt was the same shirt that that abuser wore. And so they see you wearing that shirt, but your shirt triggers them and you're completely unaware.

[00:37:55] You're in the dark. Why is this person acting weird around me? And. . There was, um, a wonderful book out there called, um, what Happened to You by, um, I'm trying to remember, the Oprah Wim three and this, um, trauma doctor wrote it, but he tells this story in there of, uh, a boy that was disruptive in the classroom, was acting out, had all these behaviors in this one class, but didn't do it in any other classroom.

[00:38:23] And he found out, long story short, that the teachers cologne, the Old Spice deodorant, smelled the same exact way as his alcoholic abusive father. So when he sat in front of the class and smelled it, he immediately had that trauma trigger and would disrupt the class and would behave, but no one knew until that trauma trigger was reveal.

[00:38:48] Jeffrey Besecker: It's in that regard, narcissism itself has been something of a mystery. two psychologists. Yeah. You know, existing as a personality trait with maybe two faces, looking at vulnerable narcissism, we see where that vulnerable inner child starts to come out.

[00:39:08] Angela: Yes. And that's where a lot of us, I do think, you have to heal that inner child because there's a great treatment program out there called I F S, internal Family Systems, and that's all about parts therapy and it's all about the little wounded parts that we have within ourselves.

[00:39:26] And it's putting all those puzzle pieces together so you can be your authentic self instead of, you know, being all reactive and triggered by. , you know, certain people or certain events or certain smells or certain, you know, even someone's laughter could trigger you because you, you had a trauma.

[00:39:45] Jeffrey Besecker: No, we went a couple episodes back.

[00:39:47] It looked at that area of that kind of vulnerable, anxious insecurity. We often first experienced as a child. We hold onto that where it's characterized by hypersensitivity and sort of a need for defensiveness to feel safe. Yes. At the height of that, when we feel our most disempowered, we withdraw, we pull back, we shrink, becoming even more vulnerable in our emotionality and our feelings.

[00:40:17] Angela: Yes. But when it's a narcissist, they want to feel powerful. Mm-hmm. , they wanna feel in control, and so that's where they use a person as a tool to feel that way. . That's why they manipulate. That's why they gaslight. That's why they stonewall. So then they're more superior than you.

[00:40:37] Jeffrey Besecker: Mm-hmm. . So in that regard, then we're shifting into that grandiose narcissism where they're trying to feel that sense of superiority again.

[00:40:48] Angela: Yes. And even the covert can do the same exact thing, you know, to you because they passively aggressively insulted you and now they feel better about themselves.

[00:40:59] Jeffrey Besecker: That's easy to see. Then where that sense of self importance then becomes such a prominent feature where we're trying to say simply I matter because I lack that feeling of matter.

[00:41:12] Right. Because I'm not feeling fulfilled in that. You know, I feel that need, you know, the necessity to control others to then exert. , my sense of manipulation, control to say, I will get what I need.

[00:41:27] Angela: Yes. And they can either go about that a direct way or indirect way, . And it's just knowing how to spot it. You know how to spot it.

[00:41:36] And it's, yeah, it's like what are the, what are the behaviors, what are the traits? What are, what are the signs? And, and that's how we all get manipulated and taken advantage of. Because we don't know the traits, we don't know the signs, we don't know the patterns. And we need to know them to keep ourselves safe and to keep our sanity.

[00:41:56] I'm gonna

[00:41:57] Jeffrey Besecker: shift a little bit here and this might be a reach, so I hope this doesn't become challenging to you as someone who's experienced narcissistic abuse. But I feel it warrants looking at, it's fascinating to observe how trait level. Grandiosity and vulnerability coexistent everyday.

[00:42:14] People like you and me in many regards, we each display some level of narcissism throughout our interactions. Yet we often form those stigmas about the narcissism that others display. You know, some days we each feel super pumped up about ourselves and ready to conquer the world somewhat of a grandiose, narcissistic trait that becomes beneficial.

[00:42:40] I want to throw that in there for contrast so we can see how that interaction happens at interplay. Yet there's other days where we ourselves shrink. and feel, you know, we've been conquered by the world, as after a breakup or a difficult day at work, that conflict we may have experienced with a significant other, and we kind of feel that vulnerable, narcissistic trait that sometimes can arise that tiptoes us up to those indirect and direct ways that we then communicate.

[00:43:17] You know, the question then arise. Go ahead, .

[00:43:19] Angela: I'm trying to figure out the question that

[00:43:21] Jeffrey Besecker: you're, that that's more of an aside. That's, it's kind of a, an insight overview and hoping to bridge where that line starts to gray. You know how sometimes we just lump that ball of clay that says either you're narcissistic or you're not.

[00:43:37] This is the most extreme form yet there is that subtle shade of gray, each of us. Casually tiptoes up to on occasion.

[00:43:46] Angela: Well, lemme see if I can answer this question the best way that I'm, I'm hearing it. Or indirectly hearing . Yeah. Cause it feels like it's indirectly hearing it. So there is, I believe it is healthy for everyone to have that sense of self-worth and a sense of self pride and to have self-esteem.

[00:44:05] I believe, and confidence all of that is healthy. All of that is positive. Okay. And being a confident person is important. It it, it is, it is needed. Because to me, everyone should be loved and accepted. Every, everyone should have a voice, there should be quality, all of that. Okay. Where it becomes, for me, narcissistic is where I'm better than you.

[00:44:31] I'm more important than you. What I have to say is more important than you. What I think is more important than you. That is where, , it crosses the line to where it's not equality anymore, it's now split thinking. It's either you're with me or you are against me. And it's that wall of of separation. And so I want people to have a sense of pride.

[00:44:59] I want people to value themselves and feel good and be happy and go go about their life. And when you are that way, you're being kind to other people. You're showing mutual respect to other people. You're showing decency. But when it's someone that's narcissistic, they don't, the only time they do it is when they love bomb you because they want something from.

[00:45:22] And when you have that healthy self-esteem and that healthy, you know, outlook on life, you're not trying to manipulate people. You're not trying to take advantage of people. you're embracing people for all their indifferences. That's why I say we're all perfectly imperfect. You're embracing everyone's imperfections.

[00:45:41] You're not shaming them or insulting them or making them feel like they're stupid or they're worthless. And so there's, you know, if, I think I answered, hopefully I answered it correctly, but

[00:45:55] Jeffrey Besecker: there is no, that was a very vague question that simply asked, where might we step up into that shade of gray, where we slip over the edge into those more covert areas of narcissism.

[00:46:06] So, In hindsight now, . Okay, so, so if

[00:46:10] Angela: you're, how you slipping that way is, it's okay. I'm gonna give a perfect example. Let's say you became a celebrity and you go out to a restaurant and the waiter's not, you say to the waiter, don't you know who I am? Mm-hmm. , to me, that's narcissistic. I don't need to announce who I, it's very

[00:46:30] Jeffrey Besecker: overt in it's narcissism.

[00:46:33] Angela: In many ways, it's, I don't need to tell you who I am, I don't, you know, it's like, I was raised, and I saw this recently, there was a meme I saw recently where some celebrities shaking the janitor's hand, and he said, I was raised to show respect to all people and all professions. And so yes, I'm gonna, I will shake, you know, the janitor's hand, I will wave at the garbage man.

[00:46:59] You know, I'm not gonna think that just, you know, because I'm an accountant, I, I'm better than him, you know, I have one up on him. I mean, he, he has a job. He's gotta put food on the table. So it's really, you know, that fine line, area of. Of mutual respect and common decency for, for everyone. And when you start to lose that, then um, maybe you need to do a reality check and be like, well, hey, I have been a little bit egotistical here.

[00:47:30] I let my career overshadow who I really am, or, or I won million, I'm won the lottery and now, you know, I think I'm better than everyone else.

[00:47:39] Jeffrey Besecker: And there again, we're looking back to assessing by that five factor model of personality. Personality not being permanent but transmutable, right? Yet we do have some kind of scaled models.

[00:47:53] We can measure and monitor ourselves for self-regulation I'm gonna repeat that because that was a little bit confusing I'm gonna put that in our show notes where we actually list those five factor models so we can go back and kind of evidence together and compare notes on that.

[00:48:08] Looking at that aspect. I'm gonna jump back just a second here In our conversation where you mentioned that celebrity saying, don't you know who I am? Sometimes that same sense of superiority, is it not also leveraged by everyday people like you and I In that same regard, don't you know who I am as a form of manipulation, a form of overpowering others?

[00:48:31] Angela: Well, and it's really putting your your ego out there. it, it really is. Um, because it is the best way that I'm just popping in my head right now is many of us were taught to respect our elders. We are, we're taught to respect our elders. And when it comes to an elder that gets disrespected, they're gonna say, you know, Hey, weren't she taught to respect your elders?

[00:48:59] Because they do have a lot more wisdom and a lot more life experience. And sometimes that young teenager person thinks that I know it all because let's, let's agree. They do believe they know it all , but they really don't know it all. They really don't. And, and it's, it's hard sometimes. Yes. When you have to put someone in that, that position and you have to call 'em out on it.

[00:49:25] So spinning back to the celebrity, a lot of times it can be like they're seeking that extra attention. They're seeking that extra like, well, because I am a celebrity, maybe my dinner should be for free. Yeah. You know, maybe, uh, because I am a celebrity, Entitlement. Yes. It's that sense of entitlement.

[00:49:44] And so I, I always believe with anyone, when you start to notice, you're getting that sense of entitlement. you need to remind yourself, who do you really wanna be? Do you wanna be a self-entitled person or do you really wanna be someone that is kind and caring? And it is, is nice to, you know, just everyone you know, wants equality because people can rub off on us.

[00:50:12] You know, you can have an agent that's really grooming you to be this self-entitled person. Mm-hmm. And who do you listen to? Because we can, all of us, we can lose our way in life. Let's just be honest here. We can lose our sense of self. We money can cloud our vision, fame can cloud our vision. You know, all these things can make us take on certain traits and behaviors that we don't like and didn't like.

[00:50:37] we gotta come back home to ourselves.

[00:50:40] Jeffrey Besecker: So circling back around to narcissistic abuse, isn't there very often a very real Im palpable subtext that signals don't, you know what I might do to you? That segues toward that kind of manipulation of imposing physical violence, you know, seeping into domestic violence.

[00:51:03] Angela: Yes. And it's really, really hard when you don't know who and what you're dealing with. Yeah. You can seriously get hurt because I know personally hand on. The person I was dealing with in that verbal reactive abuse situation, um, did something that I never thought my wildest dreams would happen, where they inflicted self-harm upon themselves and basically had me arrested for, honestly, for assault.

[00:51:41] And, um, and the officers were not aware of reactive abuse tactics. They were not a aware that they, you know, someone narcissistic can flip the switch and then hurt themselves. We've, we've seen this in movies. We've literally seen this stuff in movies where they will injure themselves and say, this person assaulted me.

[00:52:03] This person hurt me. I want them arrested. And it's, and it it is, it's has. So much damage on that person's, self-esteem and self-worth and, and so really learning about reactive, abuse is so important because there is the physical aspect, there is the verbal, you know, there's the mental, emotional and it's how do you safeguard yourself from that?

[00:52:33] Because when you snap, it's, you're going into the deep end and you lose your composure, you lose your sense of self. And, and for some people, a lot of times they say when you do snap, it is a form of P T S D because you've had so much abuse that it leads you up to breaking and snapping. And P T S D is a form of, you know, of trauma.

[00:52:58] And if you've had. Lots of abuse. When you can snap, you can also disassociate where you completely check out this self-protecting part of you comes out and lashes out at your abuser and then you don't even, you don't remember what happened. It's like you blacked out and that becomes even more scary.

[00:53:21] Jeffrey Besecker: circling this to data from w Keith Campbell and various other research.

[00:53:28] Typically, you know, we associate those who identify as male with being more prominently featuring narcissistic characteristics and traits not to be inherent. Disempowering to the female gender, yet there's a very real threat, often felt simply by that male presence, somewhat of a condition dominance. On top of that, that societally we leverage where we signal and say that as a female also, you're automatically very disempowered.

[00:54:02] Angela: Right? Well, the percentage I think is like 75% of people that are narcissistic are males. 25% are females. And you have to think about it. The way that we talk, the way that we talk to kids and raise young boys is, suck it up. Be a man. Men don't cry. Yeah. Men don't show their emotions. You know, If you show vulnerability, you're weak. All these messages we give young boys is so damaging and, and, and, and how We don't. allow open communication. Like talking about your feelings is, is, is bad. It's, it's taboo, you know? And, and let's be honest, uh, how many wo more women read self-help books than men do?

[00:54:48] More women go to therapy than men do. And all of it has to do with what was modeled to us, the messages we received, and how we were conditioned growing up. Because there's nothing wrong with therapy. There's nothing wrong with vulnerability. There's nothing wrong with, you know, crying or sh or showing your feelings or saying what you need.

[00:55:07] To me, that's healthy. All of us should say what I like and what I dislike, what, you know, uh, this hurts my feelings. This, you know, doesn't hurt my feelings. We, we need to be more. We've seen that we need to just be more kind to each other, but when you can't. when kindness is thought of as a weakness, it's, it's, it's not making the world a better place.

[00:55:31] Jeffrey Besecker: Yeah. We typically view that model of narcissistic relationships from an either or one sidedness where one party is controlling and manipulating the other. One party is engaging in this, turning our attention to when interpersonal conflict arises, can we often disregard the possibility or is it a possibility that both parties may be exhibiting narcissistic traits or be in full-blown narcissism?

[00:56:02] Yes. That's a very good question. . Yeah. Although maybe rare, does that happen?

[00:56:07] Angela: Um, well, there is something called secondary narcissism. . Yeah. And a lot of times victims, a lot of times victims do become temporarily narcissistic. Yes. They, they do. And so that narcissistic abuser is now dealing with someone that is temporarily narcissistic and they're fighting with each other.

[00:56:30] and so it

[00:56:32] I mean, we're diving into a Yeah. And it

[00:56:35] Jeffrey Besecker: becomes that kind of slippery slope of stigma now. Yes. That we might often maybe be unaware of, I shutter to say neglect because that insinuates that we're doing it intentionally. It's often under-recognized. There it is. Well, it's a song and

[00:56:53] Angela: that might come into play.

[00:56:54] Yeah. I think when someone becomes, you know, temporarily narcisistic it, um, , it becomes a self-defense mechanism. Yes. You're trying to protect yourself and the, and you've, you've had enough abuse and so you are angry and you are lashing out at your abuser and sometimes like that cut the narcissist gave you, you're bleeding your wounds upon everybody else.

[00:57:22] and, and it does trickle out onto your friends and onto your family, onto your coworkers. And a lot of people can be like, I don't know who you are anymore. And the thing is, is when you're a victim of that psychological abuse, it really does fry the circuits in your brain. You are not yourself.

[00:57:43] You've

[00:57:44] Jeffrey Besecker: essentially how towed to that path of gaslighting that then does shift your reality. That Then does shift you into that cognitive dissonance?

[00:57:53] Angela: Yes. And it's, and I, I remember struggling with cognitive dissidents, my myself, because it's like, did they really just do that? Did they really just say that?

[00:58:05] And you think in your mind, you know, well, they were so loving and so kind and this and that when I met them. But that was just a facade to get you hooked. You know, that's why love bombing is so damaging is they come off as perceiving as someone else. And when the masks starts to slip and the behaviors start to come out, that really does create that cognitive dissidence because you're, you're questioning, are they really narcissistic or are they really this kind loving person?

[00:58:39] It, it messes with your mind. Because we don't wanna think of someone as being evil and destructive and, and narcissistic. We wanna give them the benefit of the doubt.

[00:58:51] Jeffrey Besecker: You know, there was a little intention in that kind of probing, searching questions of might both parties be simultaneously exhibiting those narcissistic traits?

[00:59:02] Are there times when these narcissistic patterns then verge on becoming maybe vindictive or emotional vigilantism? It's a little

[00:59:11] Angela: bit loaded. It is a little bit loaded, but I think a lot of it has to do with self-awareness and self-control because all of us know that we all can, all of us have that trait inside of us where we can become evil.

[00:59:27] let's be honest, when it's like life or death or you feel completely threatened, all of us had the ability to turn into someone that we would never think possible. I mean, we've heard of women where their kids are trapped underneath a car. And to save that child's life, they lift the car up and sometimes someone breaks into your house and you never thought that you would shoot a person, but you did in self-defense.

[00:59:54] And so we all are capable of, of doing things that goes beyond our normal characteristics and behaviors. And the key thing is when we start to display those behaviors that are damaging, destructive, and questionable, I feel that's when we need to do a self inventory. , we really need to look at, \ why am I acting this way?

[01:00:19] Why am I speaking this way? Why am I behaving this way? Who might be bringing the worst out in me? What's triggering this to happen within me? And really do some self-exploration and sometimes, asking friends and family members, because those are the ones that are gonna see you change the most. And it is hard, trust me.

[01:00:40] It's hard when someone, you know, loves you has to say to you, you know? Yeah. You have been irrational. Yeah. You have been narcissistic lately. Yeah. You have been lashing out in anger. And all of those are P PTs, d i c warning signs. You could have hidden trauma and you don't even realize that all those behaviors you've been displaying is a sign of hidden trauma.

[01:01:04] Jeffrey Besecker: Bring that up. As an aside, based on research conducted by the University of Illinois, department of Psychology. That suggests that abuse victims often utilize it as a form of empowering or vindictive tool to regain that sense of positive self regard at the expense of being narcissistic themselves.

[01:01:23] I'm gonna leave that hanging out, I feel today, because that's a left turn into another episode. Oh no, that's beautiful. Okay, , that's a great way to frame it. You know, that leaves us open for further future exploration. Yes. As we near the end of our conversation today, Angela, you speak of that technique you call the endgame strategy.

[01:01:46] Share with us a little bit about that framework and how that begins to come into play.

[01:01:52] Angela: So the end game is realizing that the person is trying to get you to snap.

[01:01:59] they're really pushing the boundaries. They're pushing you over the edge, and you can feel yourself slipping into that fight, flight, freeze, or FAW mode. And those are the behaviors that have to do with your limbic brain, your survival, you know, it's, you're gonna make it irrational choice. And so I want people to first recognize that, hey, this is reactive abuse. Whether it is gonna be physical or gonna be verbal, you gotta recognize that it is reactive abuse and it is a tactic to get you to snap. Okay? and so what I want people to do is, first I need them. do a redirection. Okay? You either need to walk away from the abuser, say, I need to use the restroom.

[01:02:46] you gotta come up with something because they're gonna keep pushing you and pushing you. So you have to create distance. So once you can create distance and you can possibly walk away or redirect or change the subject, that's where I, I want people to, if they can, I say, go to the bathroom. Just close the door.

[01:03:06] It's that space. Calm down. There is a calm down technique you can do where you put one hand behind your neck, the other hand on your forehead. You wanna do it when you're sitting down. You really control your breathing and you just, you breathe in, you know, for, you can breathe in for the count of five, breathe out for the count of five, but you do it at least 10 times to get grounded, more centered.

[01:03:32] Then you need to ask yourself, what is the endgame? go over the conversation in your mind. What is this person trying to do? What are they asking of you? And, what can possibly be the consequences of your actions? and if you're a person that's into that, please, in appease mode, the best thing I say is don't agree.

[01:03:54] Don't say yes because that's your auto response. Knee-jerk reaction. Say, let me stop. Agree to disagree. . Yeah. Agree to disagree. Say, lemme think about it. Lemme think about it. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Really say, let me think about it. Just say, you know what? I'm not in the mood right now to think about it. You know, let me think about it.

[01:04:11] And that can just be your response. Let me think about it. Let me think about it. Let me think about it. Instead of saying, yes, let me think about it. But really look at the end, game because. , you can find yourself in a situation where you know they're gonna win. And sometimes if you realize they need a win, then give them the win.

[01:04:31] And the win could be, yes, you're right. I was stupid. Mm-hmm. , even though you know you're not stupid, even just letting them have that small win If it saves you from snapping, do it. Because it can be used against you. Literally used against you. So you can agree like, yes, you were right. I was stupid in that.

[01:04:52] And just to get 'em off your back. Because the thing is, is if you keep pushing and pushing and you fight and you push back, then they can say, we'll see, she pushed me. She was the abuser. Or he was the abuser. And then you find yourself in this whole can of worms. So the end game technique is really creating distance, calming yourself down and thinking of the end game.

[01:05:16] What are the consequences of. my actions. If I do this, if I don't do that, what can happen? What is the conversation? will I spend jail time if I do that, mm-hmm. , will I lose custody of my kids if I say this? It's really, really dissecting it in your cortex brain where you have that rational thinking instead of irrational.

[01:05:42] Jeffrey Besecker: I wanna thank you for sharing such a relevant, pertinent insight. Hopefully this endgame technique helps us come a little closer to an end of the confusion we often feel when dealing with narcissistic abuse. Namaste, the Lighten Me. Acknowledges The lighten you. This truly has been such a amazing, fascinating chance to learn and discover more about this pertinent topic.

[01:06:10] Angela: Thank you for having me today. Truly appreciate you. I want you to have a great, great

[01:06:16] Jeffrey Besecker: moment. I'm so grateful. Thank you. Have a great day. I know you have to run. I do. We'll circle back around with an email and I'll touch base with you again soon, hun. Okay. Thank you so much. All right. You take care. Take care.

[01:06:28] We'll talk soon. Be

[01:06:29] Angela: blessed. All right. Okay. Bye.

[01:06:33] Jeffrey Besecker: Angela Meyer Narcissist series discussing direct and indirect verbal abuse and how this often tiptoes up to narcissism.

[01:07:10] Hi. Hello, Angela. How are

[01:07:11] Angela: you? I'm good. How's your, how's your

[01:07:14] Jeffrey Besecker: morning? Great, . I'm doing well. Yeah. I'm excited to finally connect with you. I know you've been speaking with our team members and we've been trading a lot of notes back and forth, so I'm excited to have this conversation today.

[01:07:31] Angela: Thank you. Same here.

[01:07:33] Jeffrey Besecker: Particularly because we're developing what is now evolving into a four-part series on looking at a deeper understanding and awareness of narcissism. Um, I know from a lot of levels we get, um, a lot of different conversations in regard to that socially, uh, the, the topic is a hot button topic right now, and I think by and large we've been maybe enamored with that to a degree that it's become somewhat of a buzzword and an often misused buzzword in that regard.

[01:08:09] So,

[01:08:10] Angela: well actually, um, last year, the, I think it was the Wikipedia or the Webster, the year, the year, the wor Yes. The word it was gaslighting . And I was like, oh my, that, that was great. Yeah. But at the same time, I was happy that people are, Talking about it. I, I know I've seen shows where people have used it out of content.

[01:08:34] Yes. Where they really don't know what it means. And I'm like, what podcast lighting .

[01:08:39] Jeffrey Besecker: Yeah. That's one of the areas we hope to kind of bring in, especially as a podcast that looks at the overall patterns of human behavior. Um, you know, we wanna do justification to this topic and look at that broad overview.

[01:08:55] Um, you know, I mentioned we did a, um, interview, um, Petrovic. Shannon. Shannon, sorry, that was not hitting me right today, catching her first name. But yeah, we did a segment with her about, oh, it's been about a month and a half ago now. Um, on looking a little more specific at that end of, um, speaking from the victim model, you know, understanding what it feels like to be victimized by a narcissist.

[01:09:27] Hey, Verifiable and clinical level narciss system. Ultimately what we wanna do, establishing first off, is looking at that broad overview. I'm still working on a couple contacts with uh, w Keith Campbell. Okay. Um, I've done a lot of research on his work in background on looking at this more in depth scientific overview and study of narcissism and narcissistic traits, breaking that down into various types, all of the five factor model, looking at the dark triad and everything like that.

[01:10:01] Right. I want to present that because I feel so often narcissism in and of itself is looked at, you know, from that subjective view of an either or, either you're a narcissist or you're not.

[01:10:15] Angela: Right. And it's really hard because you can know someone that isn't a narcissist, but they do gaslight you. Yeah. And, and they do, um, blame shift and they do, um, sometimes bait you or provoke you into doing things that you normally wouldn't do.

[01:10:32] They know how to manipulate you, but then technically they're not cons, you know, narcissistic. It's just they know the game play

[01:10:40] Jeffrey Besecker: and it's really hard. The level I love looking at with Keith Campbell is, you know, he looks at that aspect, how each and every one of us from time to time may dip our toe into those narcissistic traits and how those can also be beneficial.

[01:10:57] Right. You know, I think that was an interesting ripple that so often we just looked at that negative stigma that we generate societally regarding narcissism and how that's often kind of leveraged. In the view, you know, I say leveraged from that perspective of how we're framing things. You know, there are very real in instances, as you yourself know personally from your experience, where that narcissistic abuse of chronic narcissism is very real and present.

[01:11:30] Shannon and I bridged that. Also. I wanna tie in that.today. I love this interesting ripple you brought in about looking at direct and indirect verbal abuse. That was very telling to me how we can kind of tiptoe up to that gray line. I like that being a transitionary segment. You know, I'm, I'm gonna do like a full, um, you know, this'll end up probably being about an hour conversation, but, but, uh, four separate pieces.

[01:12:01] With that focus on, you know, how do we understand that broader view? How do we get a very real snapshot of victimhood when it's the very traumatic experience at the hand of, of narcissistic chronic abuse? And then I love this conversation tiptoeing up to that gray line where some of that narcissism can show itself indirect and indirect verbal abuse.

[01:12:32] Angela: Right? And then how do you per, you know, how do you respond instead of react? And how do you keep yourself safe? Because, um, when you, when you know what it is, it's easier to detect it. And, and it's so weird because I, I did a podcast just recently in a blog post about it. And just that same week, I had someone do that to me.

[01:12:58] and they were in doing the indirect verbal abuse. And I knew that if , if I would've said something in, in front of them, then they would've like, got all upset and would've been like, see, I can't even talk to you. You're so angry. And, and they would've flipped the, the script on me. And so it was really important to not take the bait mm-hmm.

[01:13:23] and to, you know, I literally walked away and, and it was actually a family member of mine that was talking, you know, badly about me in, in the presence of my son, which I wasn't anticipating. And, um, and when, uh, it was just, all I have to say is it was really odd, but then I did have. Talk to this person later on and, and say, you know, we had an agreement to show mutual respect and common courtesy to each other, and that boundary has been pushed, and that person blew up.

[01:14:00] Literally blew up, was like, and I, and I told them, I said, you know what, this is why I tried not to, you know, react when I, when I was being baited, I didn't want, you know, I didn't wanna react, but at the same time, I can't be walking on eggshells. That's not fair. We

[01:14:21] Jeffrey Besecker: spent a good deal of time in our program looking at how we variously go up and down that autonomic ladder.

[01:14:29] Yes. And experience those triggers and, you know, the various reasons that cause that. Some of that, after a while, once we become conditioned to it, once we're, you know, we, we initially are unaware of it. A lot of times, if that's not in our. upbringing in our childhood, which the majority of time appears that we are not.

[01:14:53] So going back to that, you know, I think this is a great segue then to lean in and say we can start to recognize this, spot it and call it for what it is. So with that said, if you're all ready to jump in, I'll fire right in and, and we will start with our line of questioning. Um, we typically do the overdub version of our intros, and rather than segueing down the path of, let's hear all of your backstory, right, our audience, you know, is more in the practitioner realm.

[01:15:28] So we're going right toward the juice of, of talking about the conversational topic. Um, we will hit all the relevant points. We will mention any kind of call to action that will bring anybody your way to also, Connect with that, and then we do get that secondary audience that tends to only probably be about 25 to 30% of our audience are actual, you know, potential help seekers or clients

[01:15:57] Right. I like to frame it that way. Uh, just saying clients to me sometimes becomes a little bit diminishing, you know, because then it seems like everything. is transactionary. You know, we, we like to look that more as help seekers who are looking for, you know, awareness, but we have a smaller portion of our population in our listening community.

[01:16:18] Um, you know, that's kind of just been the natural evolution over three years. So with that in mind, okay, if you're all set, .

[01:16:25] Angela: All right, well let me do this because, um, I saw that it was only for 15 minutes, so I didn't know , that you would go into it. So I just need to do two things. I need to put a cat out that's been grim, , and then I need to just tell my son really quick.

[01:16:42] Okay? He's gonna record. So don't come to

[01:16:45] Jeffrey Besecker: the living room. I'll have to go back and look at that. Thanks for pointing that out. Um, I know we've got a couple links too. I'm hoping somebody didn't intermingle, maybe even myself. So, yeah, cuz it just

[01:16:56] Angela: said 15 minutes, so I thought okay, it's just, I wrote down, it's a mini interview and

[01:17:01] Jeffrey Besecker: I'm like, yeah, ours.

[01:17:02] Yeah, ours typically go between 45 and an hour because yeah, we're really diving in and I try to push that way intentionally. Um, you know, I'm okay beyond some of this condition, 20 minutes stuff where it's like that tends to lead us into those corners. So, okay,

[01:17:18] Angela: so lemme do those two things. I'll be right.

[01:17:19] No hurry.

[01:17:20] Jeffrey Besecker: Thank you.

[01:17:25] Angela: I

[01:17:41] get water

[01:17:43] Jeffrey Besecker: always in necessity.

[01:17:50] I'm so grateful to share this time with you today. Thank you. I wanna start our conversation there, .

[01:17:57] Angela: Thank you. I'm, I'm, I'm seriously honored to, to be here and to be on your podcast. I, I highly respect what you do and everything, and I was just really delighted because I have found it's really challenging to, to get interviews.

[01:18:14] Yes. Especially with the topic I, I talk about mm-hmm. because for example, I think it was Pod Match. I sent out 85 requests to be interviewed and only five people responded.

[01:18:26] Jeffrey Besecker: Yes. Yeah, that's interesting. I just had a conversation with Alex San Phil, Filipino, I spit that out. Right. The, the founder there at, at pod match, uh, about a week and a half ago.

[01:18:40] Um, I've experienced that sort of as a growing pain of ours. Um, you know, initially we, we booked out like months and months ahead in advance, but as our programs evolved, we've gotten more deeply focused on kind of finding those evidence based approaches to our conversation. And I'm finding a lot of the more surface level topics have fallen off, you know, a lot of the.

[01:19:09] segmented population there. You know, there doesn't tend to be, from my perspective with the level we're going to as many kind of expert quote unquote level guests in there, and Alex even mentioned that. Yeah. That's an area where we feel we can grow and bringing more of that segment in. So, you know, that's, I, I share your pain in that

[01:19:31] Yeah. There again, I feel that level of talking about narcissism is kind of a, oh no, that's kind of a taboo thing because then. We get in into that gray area for a lot of reasons. So, you know, I respect that. Totally. .

[01:19:47] Angela: Yes. Well, and my main concern is if you don't like them, then we gotta stop creating them.

[01:19:52] Yes. . I mean that's, I mean, come on. Cause they're not born that way. Yeah. And the same is with a sociopath and a psychopath. They're not born that way. We create them. And so if we don't like the, the, you know, interacting with these people, we gotta stop creating them.

[01:20:09] Jeffrey Besecker: Mm-hmm. and well hopefully we shine a light on that today in a manner that brings that bigger understanding where we can start to see where these seeds perhaps are, are

[01:20:22] Angela: so Right.

[01:20:23] Because there I do know the six different ways that they are created mm-hmm. and um, and two of it, three of 'em is parenting and the. three has to, you know, do it just life experiences. And that's why I'm, I'm an advocate about talking about trauma and talking about bullying and talking about abuse, because those are the three other ways that people, you know, become narcissistic or even, you know, having secondary narcissism.

[01:20:53] Jeffrey Besecker: Hmm. That's, that's tiptoeing a little off our path. I'd love to touch base on that because I think that blurb there can also become so relevant in this overall conversation. Um, right. Is that something you'd like to do a little prelim discussion on, or would you like to circle back and mention that clearly?

[01:21:14] I think if we capture just a brief overview of those six ways without dissecting,

[01:21:19] Angela: because Yeah. We don't have to dissect. Yeah. Yeah. .

[01:21:23] Jeffrey Besecker: So let's just do a brief mention. What are those six ways or. Patterns of behavior, I'll frame it that way, that tend to create what we classically label narcissism.

[01:21:38] Angela: So the six ways are three different parenting types.

[01:21:41] That is the neglectful parent. It is the absent parent, and then it is an authoritarian parent. So neglectful could be like a, a mom that's very vain and into herself, but doesn't have time for the, you know, the kids. She's very self-absorbed, absent is like a c e o or president of a company. They, they're not there, but they give their kid a lot of money, but not attention.

[01:22:04] And, you know, the authoritarian, the really strict parent. And then the other three is bullying, abuse, and trauma. Mm-hmm. . And so when I talk about trauma, um, I've been working with this one young girl in her twenties that is, has been diagnosed as being narcissistic. And why she is is when she was around 14, her mom accidentally died.

[01:22:28] and that was a trauma for her. But then she got traumatized twice because her dad was in such big grief, he couldn't give her the emotional support that she needed. So she just, she didn't trust people. She didn't feel the world was a safe place and she just shut down. And now she's got lots of anger and anxiety and is, you know, lashing out on, on other people.

[01:22:52] And she realizes it's a really big issue. It's a, it's a serious problem.

[01:22:57] Jeffrey Besecker: And from that perspective, that leads us back to one of those core root patterns that create that narcissism, not feeling our needs being met in a younger age.

[01:23:10] Angela: Correct. Or not getting those Yes, those needs met because, uh, I always, I tell people that the way our parents parented us is completely different than those following generations.

[01:23:24] You can't parent the same way that you were parented.

[01:23:28] Jeffrey Besecker: That is readily apparent to watch and observe. . . That's how I'll frame that. I mean, we can see those noticeable differences, and it's refreshing in the regard that we're now becoming more aware of it and able to change and shift some of those patterns, some of those ways that we do interact.

[01:23:48] So thank you for bringing that up to today. I think that's a great insert. Sure. That also opens us, I think, to six separate episodes In looking at each of those conditions, I feel that level of attention is needed. So . Yeah, . So with that said, Angela, in this episode, I'd like to discuss the subtle ways in which we tiptoe up to Narciss narcissism through both direct and indirect verbal abuse.

[01:24:21] While healthy disagreement is both a normal and necessary part of human behavior, You shared it in our pre-talk, how everyone will encounter someone who will use direct or indirect verbal abuse up, let me frame that again. Will use direct and indirect verbal reactive abuse tactics in their interactions.

[01:24:46] Let's open up by asking, when it comes to healthy disagreement, where do we draw the line between healthy conflict and verbal abuse? That's a big one. I like jumping in with those big, juicy questions.

[01:24:59] Angela: That is a great question and it is big and juicy because I like to say, um, healthy people can agree to disagree and healthy people can set boundaries and they can communicate, you know, what they, what their needs are and they can hopefully trust the person.

[01:25:21] respect what they're saying and, and well agree that yes, we need to do this. When it comes down to the reactive verbal abuse, what the person is really doing is they're trying to trigger you into snapping. And, and, and the problem is, is when you snap you, you don't have the ability to make a rational decision or choice.

[01:25:48] You literally end up going from the cortex brain, where that's your rational thinking is, and you go right into your survivor brain and, and you snap and you react. And that's where a lot of people regret the choices they make and they regret the things that happen. And the concern for me is when you snap, we can find ourselves in a situation that will alter our lives forever.

[01:26:21] and it could be where someone, um, gets bullied into a, a dare and they end up, um, going to jail. They end up getting in trouble with the law. Or, or let's say you get, you get pushed into responding or reacting in a certain way that goes outta your normal behavior and it, it can, it can backfire. And so my, my main concern is, is really wanting to teach people a technique that I created called the End Game that protects you from snapping and gets, allows you to make rational choices in instead of having regrets maybe the rest of your life.

[01:27:09] Jeffrey Besecker: We just shared a great episode with John Eli Gure talking about our autonomic ladder and how. Within our central nervous system, we travel up and down those various vagal phases where we're activated, deactivated, triggered untried. You know, from that aspect, as we learn that healthy regulation, we also learn how to navigate some of these interactions.

[01:27:38] Nevertheless, you know, loving someone doesn't mean putting up with arguments that attack your self-worth and your basic rights that border on that line of verbal abuse. So, you know, verbal abuse is often defined as any spoken, written or gestured. Communication used to assert man, manipulative, I'll spit that out.

[01:28:02] Manipulative power and control over another with that regard, because it's often used to deliberately humani humiliate. I'm having trouble with my big words today, , because it's often used to deliberately humiliate and demean. Might it also be considered a form of emotional abuse?

[01:28:24] Angela: Oh, it's a hundred. To me it's a hundred percent emotional abuse.

[01:28:27] And it's mental abuse as well. Because when, when you really, to me, when you really love someone, you think before you speak and you pick your words wisely. And when you are, when you're being destructive and you're using words that are damaging, um, you can't take those words back. So like a good example I gave is I really think some of the laws should change about, um, physical abuse, you know, versus emotional abuse.

[01:29:01] Because let's say you break your arm and the arm heals and it mens and, and you're okay, you survive that physical abuse, but. You were traumatized mentally and emotionally traumatized by the person that broke your arm. And that can scar you men that can scar you for the rest of your life. And so it's really important to consider how we treat one another and how we speak to each other and, and, and choosing those words because our words can literally be like a knife.

[01:29:37] It's like life or death. You know? Do I support this person or am I just, you know, gonna try to decapitate them with my words? , you

[01:29:46] Jeffrey Besecker: know, that's such a complex area to look at because it can be communication that's direct and blunt, or it can be that passive aggressive and subtler. Yes, form of interaction, form of manipulation, especi.

[01:30:02] Angela: Yes, exactly. So if it's indirect, it would be where you specifically know the person is talking about you when you're in the same room or you're in earshot and it's, it's really bad because there's a part of you that will wanna defend yourself and, and be reactive and say, Hey, you know, I didn't do that, or I didn't say that.

[01:30:24] But really what they're doing is they're baiting you. They, they know you're there. They know you're listening and they're trying to, I look at it is they're egging you on to take the bait. I, and then they'll turn around and they'll flip the script and say, see, you're so abusive. Or they'll say, don't you have a sense of humor?

[01:30:43] I was just joking when really they weren't just joking. We can

[01:30:49] Jeffrey Besecker: see this illustrated in a very pronounced way within say, covert narcissism, where that kind of conniving manipulation is very intentional. Yes, it is. Can we break this down into two different types, known as blunt and non blunt, emotional cruelty, cruelty.

[01:31:13] I will get my act together. today, blunt and non blunt, emotional cruelty, somewhat allowing us to form a deeper understanding of how we leverage this towards other people in our interactions and how it also is received back. Are you familiar with that ? I

[01:31:34] Angela: am. I'm And it's, it's, it's, the blunt is really hard.

[01:31:38] Yes. And the thing is, is I

[01:31:43] blunt to me is more, is more vicious. because it think about it is instead of grabbing a little kitchen knife, they're grabbing a machete. Yeah. . All right. Because the word is really designed to cut and how deep do I wanna cut you? And so when it's, when it's blunt, it, it, a lot of people can be shocked and they will freeze and they won't know how to respond or how to react because you didn't expect that to come outta their mouth.

[01:32:20] And it's, it's literally vicious. But when it is, you know, a, a blunt jab, it, it kind of, I, it messes with your mind to me. I think it messes with your mind because you're trying to figure out did they really say that? Did they really mean that? And it causes confusion. and because it would be easier if they were just direct and blunt and said it, but when they dance around it or they try to minimize it, but you really know the severity of the blade.

[01:32:57] Um, it's, it, it messes with your mind. That's just the best way. Yes. But it really messed with your mind

[01:33:07] Jeffrey Besecker: such a poignant and, uh, salient way to experience that. You know, we, we kind of can illustrate that by looking at it as, you know, assault or disrespect. Yeah. Controlling, manipulating and even venturing down that path of, you know, invading our privacy.

[01:33:23] You know, we somewhat feel violated or very much feel violated.

[01:33:29] Angela: You do. And I think when it's not so directly blunt at you in your face, um, it, it more, it, it just, . It, it's, it's, it stumps your mind. It really can stump your mind. And the problem is, is when it is that blunt attack, you, it, you're more easily to stew over it and fester on it, and it will keep you awake at night.

[01:33:56] And you're thinking about it, you're thinking about it, you're thinking about it. But when it's like that direct attack, you, you're not replaying it as much as you did in your mind because now you know exactly what, you know, what they did, what they said. You're not trying to put the puzzle pieces together.

[01:34:14] It's, it's in your face. Yeah. It seems

[01:34:17] Jeffrey Besecker: a little more easily recognized when it is that blunt, reactive, kind of forceful outburst. Correct. Versus looking at that non blunt, which, you know, again, is more covert, a little more Yes. Subtle, perhaps in its nature, in some regards. It's very

[01:34:37] Angela: sneaky .

[01:34:39] Jeffrey Besecker: That's a great way to frame it.

[01:34:40] Yeah. It can be very sneaky, so sneaky bastards, , . Trying, trying to maybe avoid some of the stigma of our own, but yeah, you know, it can be very much that sneaky bastard mentality. So reeling that back. Then that also leads us into how that experience then becomes some of that blaming or bullying, guilting harassing from that regard that leads us into those more covert ways we experience that.

[01:35:15] What are some of the other aspects that might surface in those non-black kind of covert, covert, indirect, abusive ways we do that?

[01:35:29] Angela: Well, it's those, those subtle jabs that let's say can undermine you. that make you question your ability, that make you question if I am confident enough, mm-hmm. , am I capable enough?

[01:35:43] And it, it is, I look at it is, it's a form also of identity erosion. They're chipping away at your self confidence, making you question your reality question, your abilities, question your competency. You know, it, it could, it could, it could just be an indirect jab where it's like, oh, Susie, you know, Susie's so clumsy.

[01:36:07] She's clumsy all the time. You know, that's direct. But indirect would be like, you know, oh babe, you're just so clumsy all the time. Or they can say to a friend, you know, like, oh, just see, um, you know, they're being clumsy again. And every time that happens, it's like a little indirect grab jab. , jab, jab, jab.

[01:36:30] To where then let's say Susie, if that's the name we're gonna use, she'll start to question, am I really clumsy? And then if she does do something clumsy, then she'll be like, well, yeah, maybe he's right. Maybe I am just so clumsy when in reality she's not. Hmm. And that I look at it as it's planting that seed.

[01:36:51] It's a seed they plant in your mind and dissonance basically. Yes. And we can, and we can be the ones that end up watering it because then we start questioning ourselves and we start doubting ourselves. And so we're watering it. And we're watering it. And then when we have life experiences that validate, like that seed that was planted, then um, it starts to take roots and it starts to show up in different patterns and behaviors in our lives.

[01:37:20] And that's really destructive.

[01:37:24] Jeffrey Besecker: And that often surfaces as uncomfortable humor or where they might actually leverage, oh, I was just joking. Or, that was nothing but a joke. Correct. You know, that essentially is an avoidant behavior to kind of cover up the fact that they're hiding this action. Exactly. Yeah.

[01:37:47] We look at that and it's anything from belittling, mocking, objectifying, or maybe even teasing. You know, we, we call it, you know, that kind of harmless ribbing, but that does have a very real impact on

[01:37:59] Angela: us. A hundred percent. It, it really, it really does. And that's where, like, I know there are some, some, we all have friends that we know we can do that with and it's harmless, but then we run into those people where, , it's not harmless.

[01:38:20] Where it really is designed to chip away our identity and make us question our reality and to, to break us down and cut us down. And that's where, you know, it's not fun anymore. Let's just put it that way. It's not a joke anymore. It's not fun anymore. It's, it's personal.

[01:38:42] Jeffrey Besecker: Yeah. And that brings us down to even that perhaps most impactful level of gaslighting, you know, that buzzword of the year.

[01:38:51] Yes. Share with us from your perspective, kind of your textbook 1 0 1 definition of gaslighting. Let's go ahead and, and dive into that pool today.

[01:39:03] Angela: Well, gaslighting is, is really about a person making you question your reality. And it's very, very challenging because you can have your point of view of what happened, but they have something completely different.

[01:39:19] And, and a lot of times they can try to suck other people in and by saying, well, my dad knows you. Were you, you were this way, or you did this and that. And you're, and the person that's, you know, the victim is, is going, well, do I need to talk to them? And the other person will be like, no, no, no, you don't have to.

[01:39:43] And what's even more disturbing is they can, let's say their father is dead. Well, you can't go and fact check with the father cuz he's passed away. So they're playing that game of they call triangulation where mm-hmm. They're playing the victim. You are the abuser. And the person that knows all about this is, is the rescue.

[01:40:05] and it's a really vicious cycle. And so when you are gaslighted, they, they want you to alter your reality and they want you to believe that, let's say maybe you did do this behavior that could be considered, uh, offensive or, or that you're being overly sensitive. But I, I gotta tell you, when anyone questions your reality, you, if you can fact check it, do it.

[01:40:35] And it is embarrassing. A lot of times it is so embarrassing and so humiliating, the accusations that could be thrown at you, but to save your sanity, sometimes you do need to fact check and go talk to some of your friends and talk to some people you know that really, really know you and, and find out like, was I really that angry person they're saying?

[01:40:59] Was I really? Um, Doing these behaviors that I'm being accused of. And it's, it's hard. It, it is really hard and it, it, and it is hard when someone gaslighted, gaslights you and then flips it and says, well, you're just so overly sensitive. Or they make that joke, oh, is it that time a month again? And the thing is, is even just by saying that is, is a form of, of gaslighting you, because yes, it could be that time a month, but it doesn't mean you are being irrational or overly emotional.

[01:41:37] Um, and yes, you might be sensitive, you know, during that time a month, but it doesn't mean that that person has to, um, smear you and label you in that way. It's, it's, it's just, it's, it, it's not, it, it's just not fair. It's not right.

[01:41:53] Jeffrey Besecker: And that differs wildly. , if we wanna really break the gist of it down from that more common cognitive dissonance.

[01:42:02] Yeah. Of just simply holding a different opinion, a different perspective, a different view. You know, maybe venturing up to our own biases and heuristics of just how we see things versus literally wanting to control and manipulate the total reality or the total perspective, you know, to the point where someone is actually questioning their sanity.

[01:42:29] It is

[01:42:29] Angela: a vast difference. It is a, it is a vast difference and it's really, it can be extremely damaging because a lot of our identity is, is held by how we believe in our, our belief in ourself. And when you're being gaslighted, that identity can appear to be threatened. because you can ha carry yourself in a high standard and have lots of self-respect.

[01:42:58] But when someone is gaslighting you, they're, they're basically wanting you to, they're trying to destroy your ego is, is kind of how, and your sense of self. And that's why identity erosion is so damaging. Cuz you could be a, with a, you know, upstanding citizen and all that, but then when this person gaslights you, they're trying to make you see that you're, you, you're not that way and that, you know, you're, uh, a mean person or a rude person.

[01:43:30] But although the, here's the key thing is when they're saying those things to you, a lot of times it's a projection. And I know you know about projection, so they're basically, you know, accusing you of all the things that is about Chad .

[01:43:46] Jeffrey Besecker: Yeah. With that said, How we say things matters sometimes, perhaps more than what is said itself.

[01:43:55] Yes. Looking at perhaps how we're framing that again. How do we word or phrase things can be differential. What is significant? What, I'll spit this out. What is the significance of framing within the context of our communication, both verbally and non-verbally?

[01:44:17] Angela: Well, I think a lot of it has to do, um, I like to teach the, to pros to a lot of people called the sandwich approach.

[01:44:25] Hmm. Where the bread is the positive, the meat is the issue, and you always end with the positive. It's a, it's a management tool and you always use I statements instead of you. And if you use a you statement, it has to be positive. It has to be positive. And so when you're having a disagreement, let's say with someone, you can.

[01:44:48] Start off by saying, you know what, I really, you know, I really like you and I really, um, appreciate this opportunity where we can come together and we can connect. And a lot of times I say too, that when you have to use a, uh, when you wanna use a we a you statement, sometimes use a we, so that's where I, you saw, I just used it where I said, I'm really glad that we can come together and connect instead of saying, I'm glad that you were able to come together and talk to me.

[01:45:17] So you can use we as a different statement. So let's say this person hurt my feelings and offended me. So I would start off by saying, I'm really happy that we had this opportunity to connect and communicate. I really value our friendship and it's important to me. The last conversation we had was rather discouraging and it, it hurt my feelings.

[01:45:41] and I don't know if that was intentional or unintentional, I just need to let you know how I feel because I care and I care about our friendship. And I was wanting to, as we move forward, that when we have disagreements where we can agree to disagree and that we don't take things personal and if something is really upsetting, one of us, that whenever we communicate, we show mutual respect and common decency.

[01:46:08] Um, the, i i, I care about you and this is really important, you know, to me. And I hope that, you know, this conversation opens up the doorway for more healthy conversations cuz um, you know, I've enjoyed your company and I look forward to spending more quality time with you. So you see how I was just talking?

[01:46:26] Yes. I wasn't being rude or offensive. I wasn't using you statements. I, I was showing. , I was saying, I was setting the boundary of yes, we need common courtesy. I, and I was indirectly talking about boundaries the whole time, but I wasn't directly saying, specifically saying, I'm setting this boundary with you because you're a jerk and you did this, and you did that.

[01:46:52] If I would've talked that way, the person immediately would put up a shield and wouldn't hear anything. I said,

[01:46:59] Jeffrey Besecker: what an amazingly compassionate and empathetic way to kind of breach this bridge of conflict. Yes. You know, I'd love to relate that back to that old adage, that finger that of you did this. You know?

[01:47:14] Right. We, we very aggressively do that. Sometimes we can't witness that, where that pointing finger is like a loaded gun. You know, you, you, you is, you know, every one of those is a shot to the heart. Exactly. I like looking at that. You know, we, we, there again, reframe that you are too sensitive, that, you know, as a common example can be expressed in a more help healthy and empathetic way.

[01:47:42] For instance, by saying, I want to understand how you feel, you know, we're engaging that person with caring in love rather than saying you're too sensitive. Which is just kind of a defense mechanism, an avoidance mechanism.

[01:47:59] Angela: Correct. And a lot of times we've heard, I'm sure you've heard the same, that when you have a conversation with someone, you're always, you're not really listening.

[01:48:10] You're waiting. So you can say what you wanna say. You're not really, you're not validating what the person has to say. You're not repeating back what the person has to say. And, and that's a real. Key thing is, I could say one thing, but how you perceived it and heard it can be completely opposite. So like, I'll give you a good example.

[01:48:36] One time I said to my kiddo that, you know, Hey, wouldn't it be great if you know when you get home, you get on the treadmill and just walk for 20 minutes? And, um, because you're gonna see your physical therapist tomorrow and I know he is gonna ask you, have you been on the treadmill? So, um, to make you feel good, I think it would be great if you can say, yes, I did the treadmill yesterday.

[01:48:58] And, um, and the response, when I took that approach, I was being all positive and everything, but when my kiddo shut down and I asked him what was wrong, he said, you just told me I was fat. Mm-hmm. . And I'm like, sweetie, I didn't call you fat at. . That was your perception. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I would never call you that.

[01:49:23] And that opened the door for that whole conversation. So I tell people, when you see someone shut down, even though you were saying something that was positive and was trying to be supportive when they shut down and all of that, it's because they perceived what you said in it, uh, uh, in a false way. And they need clarity.

[01:49:44] They need to hear you make that clarity. Because a lot of times, Adam embarrassment or, or, or shame or guilt, um, like what my son was experiencing, he, um, he perceived it wrong. And I had, I had to flat out tell him, that's not what I said. I would never say that, but that's how he internalized it or perceived.

[01:50:09] Jeffrey Besecker: Yeah. In a lot of ways that's where it's common for these control dramas to be present in our everyday interactions. You know, where sometimes that natural response then might become, I never said such thing, you know, I never said that. You know, we start to then, right, go into that conflict where we're fighting for that control, for who's right, who's wrong,

[01:50:34] Angela: right?

[01:50:35] And so when you really love someone and care about someone, when you see them shut down, ask for clarification. You know, like, what's wrong? You know? Did I say something that, you know, might, um, have it interpreted in a, in a way that hurt your feelings? Please tell me cuz I care about you. And see that's the difference between someone spinning back around, that's narcissistic.

[01:50:57] They're not gonna do that. Yeah. Let's be honest, they're not gonna do that. They're not, they don't have the empathy. They don't care if they hurt your feelings or not.

[01:51:07] Jeffrey Besecker: From looking at that then from the perspective of when someone's displaying these narcissistic characteristics or traits, these are more pronounced when that conflict is present, especially with those narcissistic characteristics.

[01:51:24] So what effect do you feel these psychological tactics play when our behaviors are driven by these narcissistic traits?

[01:51:36] Angela: I think

[01:51:40] honestly, it can feel like you're a puppet on a string. I mean it, it really can, can feel like that because your strings are being pulled and manipulated and you can be pulled in a way that would go outta your character and would and would go out. what you would normally do or respond or react in, in any way.

[01:52:05] And so for me, really being self-aware and knowing the games and the tactics that are being played against you, it is a lifesaver. And for me, the best way to, let's say, decode and detect someone that's narcissistic and I, I do have it in a podcast, is, um, watching movies, watching certain shows where people display those behaviors because you can then pause, you can rewind, you can watch it again and again and again.

[01:52:41] Because when it happens to us in reality, um, it can be quite shocking. And you can, you can. You, you can re or you can, you, you can go into fight, flight, freeze. You can even go into the, the fawn, which is the, the friend mode. You're trying to, uh, please and appease that person. Mm-hmm. And so when you know what gaslighting is, projection, baiting provoking, blame shifting.

[01:53:08] You know, when you know all this, you know, reactive abuse, when you know all those signs, you are better able to respond than react. You're less likely to take it personal, and you then can make healthier choices. And so for me, it's, it's really, really knowing who you're dealing with and knowing what the patterns.

[01:53:35] So, so you had the ability to spot it, because when you don't spot it, you're literally in the dark. I mean, let's just be honest. You're, you're in the dark and, you won't know what to do. You won't know how to respond. You'll question yourself, you'll question your reality, and you're just confused.

[01:53:51] You're completely confused.

[01:53:53] Jeffrey Besecker: Now, you mentioned with great insight earlier that the idea is to be aware of these ego traps. Yes. And overcome them. You know, from that perspective, it helps to identify these four different kinds of control dramas we typically experience. Can you share with us a little bit about that?

[01:54:15] Angela: The four different control dramas? Yes. Well, the biggest one is, well, there's. , when you deal with a narcissist, they're, the three patterns that they normally have is love bombing, devalue, discard. Okay. And you can be dis, they can slightly discard you when you're even in the love bombing phase. And an example of that could be where they mention their ex did X, Y, and Z, and Oh, I know you'd never do that.

[01:54:50] So what they're doing is they're grooming you to see if you all do that behavior. So one example could be for, for a woman would be, let's say she's in great shape and she looks really good and he can make a comment about her body by saying, oh, Cynthia never could pull off that dress, but you, you wear it great and well, I know you're not gonna gain 20 or 30 pounds like Cynthia did.

[01:55:18] You wouldn't do that. Mm-hmm. . And so it's dropping that, it's planting that seed of, well, if I gain a bunch of this weight, then maybe he won't like me anymore. Maybe he'll leave me. Um, and it's, and they can use it in ways of what you're gonna wear, what you're going to eat, what you're gonna buy, what you're gonna shop, you know where, where you're gonna go.

[01:55:43] Um, and we've heard stories of men picking out what a woman's gonna wear. He, you know, tells her what she has to eat, he controls her money and all that stuff. All of that really is devaluing. And when you start to push back and you realize that what's happening, then they get mad. And that's where they start, you know, the discard phase.

[01:56:07] And it's really, really destructive. And so when you know those three patterns of the love bombing, devalue, and discard, , it's it, to me it's imp, it's it, it's important because even guys can love bomb each other. A guy can totally compliment you on your dress, on the, on your, your appearance, your amazing podcast, all of that stuff, you

[01:56:34] Jeffrey Besecker: know, nice abs man, you know, , that can have a very demeaning effect if it's presented in the right way.

[01:56:42] yes. And

[01:56:43] so,

[01:56:43] Angela: but it's, but it's winning. You know, it's winning you over. Yeah, it really is. I mean, it's like, um, what is it? It's like love growing you, you know? So bro, I love you, but, you know, but then they asked you to do something and let's say you don't wanna go along with that. Well, if you don't go along with it, then they're gonna start to devalue you.

[01:57:08] and then they can discard you because you're, you didn't wanna go along and play with that game. And what's really sad is it can be long-term, it can be short-term, but then they can still try to hook you in again. And when they try to hook you in again, that's called hoovering, like the Hoover vacuum. Hmm.

[01:57:27] They'll just try to suck you back in. It just sucks .

[01:57:31] Jeffrey Besecker: It does. It just sucks.

[01:57:32] Angela: Mm. It really does. It just sucks. And so it's knowing the tactics and the games that they, they play because, uh, a lot, like for me, I, when I started this whole journey, I, I was tipped off that I was dealing with a covert na I was tipped off that my, the person I was dealing was narcissistic.

[01:57:57] And, and when I looked into, . I was like, no, this isn't, the person isn't this way cuz it was your typical, you know, where they had that big inflated ego and all that. The person I was dealing with was the covert narcissist. Mm-hmm. and, and back then people were just using one label, but there are different types as you know, of, of narcissism and, and, and, and so I discarded it.

[01:58:24] I, I didn't think, you know, I was dealing with this person, but if I was told, look up the behaviors, look at the traits, then it would've been like a light bulb in my head going off. I would've been like, oh my God, I am being gaslighted, I'm being manipulated. There is covers control there, there's stonewalling, there's a silent treatment.

[01:58:48] There was all these behaviors that I would've been Wow. and I didn't know what the words meant. I knew what the behaviors were, but I didn't know the words. And so that's why I want people to learn, you know, their language cuz it really is their language of all the games that they play. And we're not taught this stuff in school or in high school or even in college.

[01:59:16] Our parents don't sit us down and go, now sweetie, we're gonna talk about narcissists today. ,

[01:59:21] Jeffrey Besecker: they don't do that. It's come to the forefront now, , it's,

[01:59:25] Angela: well, we, you know, it took us forever to talk about sex with our kids, but now, you know, now we seriously have to start teaching our kids about the polarity of human beings.

[01:59:37] We, we do because, and that's what I, I talk about a lot is we live in a world of polarity and all of us are gonna encounter someone that is narcissistic in our lifetime. All of us are. And all of us are gonna experience some form of direct or indirect trauma. All of us are gonna, you know, deal with people with a different, different attachment styles.

[02:00:00] Some of us will experience trauma bonding relationships, um, and, and all of us will experience, uh, you know, reactive abuse tactics. And so when these young people dive into the ocean of the world, they're gonna be swimming with sharks. And don't you wanna give them a life vest or a boat? Cuz some are gonna sink and some are gonna swim.

[02:00:21] We gotta talk about

[02:00:22] Jeffrey Besecker: this stuff. You know, as w Keith Campbell tells us, each and every one of us has different aspects of this five factor model of personality that can at times venture into that neuroticism that can shift through various phases of narcissism, narcissistic characteristics with both beneficial and adverse impact.

[02:00:49] That's a much complex area to look at and it's something we're gonna do in that first segment. So looking back to that first segment, no, that's it. We're looking at both regards to that in that regard. When we swing back now looking at that covert narcissism, so often that's rooted in that controlled drama of, poor me.

[02:01:12] Look what you have done to me. Look at how pitiful I am. Let's look at that a little bit, because I think that's such a pivotal role in this interaction. You know, with that regarded

[02:01:32] Angela: the, the best way for me to kind of get it is when we notice people that are narcissistic and their behaviors come out, there is a level of immaturity. Let's just kind of agree on that. And when we see that level of immaturity, it tells me it's a sign to me that that's where their, their trauma is rooted at.

[02:01:59] And so that six year old is coming out, or that eight year old, or that 12 year old is coming out, and that's why they're acting so immature and it's coming to the forefront and they're playing these immature games that kids play. And so when it's a covert narcissist, they're very passive aggressive. And it is, it is a very childish behavior because mature adults don't do that to each other.

[02:02:35] We are really not passive aggressive towards each other. We think before we speak. . We have common decency, we have mutual respect, and we really wanna treat, you know, let's say, try to treat people the way that we wanna be treated. You know, it, it's, it's just having, being a nice human being to each other.

[02:02:59] Okay? And so when it's someone that's a cot narcissist, um, they can be very condescending, they can very sarcastic, and they'll, they'll always, they'll it, it's like you're always a joke and it's, it, it's Dan, it, it's, it's truly, it's truly damaging. Uh, it's, and, and to me it's just, it's mind bending when you, when you experience those, because at first it can come off as being playful and you kind of go along with the playfulness of it.

[02:03:41] but when you realize that it's, it's not being playful anymore and you are the joke, that's when it gets really, really serious. And that's where they spin it and say, well, I was just joking. You're being overly sensitive. But no, it's, it's not. And that's the difference between, let's say a narcissist that has that big inflated ego is they'll just be right direct.

[02:04:06] Mm-hmm. , they'll be blunt in your face. But the covert does it in that passive sneaky way where it really messes with your mind, with your, with your sense of self. And so it's always making you, you know, question your, your reality and, and your worth. Who, who you are as a person.

[02:04:30] Jeffrey Besecker: And they're very much stuck in that regard again, in that wounded inner child response.

[02:04:36] They are, yes. Triggered trauma reactivity.

[02:04:41] Angela: It is trem. Yes. Thank you for saying it that way, . Cause it's a triggered trauma reactivity because of, you know, that that immature kid that comes out and is, is, is doing that, that behavior. And, and that's why I tell people a lot of times we, we need to be trauma informed.

[02:05:03] We really do need to be trauma informed because those, those behaviors can be triggered by, by trauma. And let's say for example, you could Dr. Wear a certain shirt and not even be aware that that shirt was the same shirt that that abuser wore. And so they see you wearing that shirt, but your shirt triggers them and you're completely unaware.

[02:05:29] You're in the dark. Why is this person acting weird around me? And. . There was, um, a wonderful book out there called, um, what Happened to You by, um, I'm trying to remember, the Oprah Wim three and this, um, trauma doctor wrote it, but he tells this story in there of, uh, a boy that was disruptive in the classroom, was acting out, had all these behaviors in this one class, but didn't do it in any other classroom.

[02:05:58] And he found out, long story short, short, that the teachers cologne, the Old Spice deodorant, smelled the same exact way as his alcoholic abusive father. So when he sat in front of the class and smelled it, he immediately had that trauma trigger and would disrupt the class and would behave, but no one knew until that trauma trigger was reveal.

[02:06:26] Jeffrey Besecker: It's in that regard, narcissism itself has been something of a mystery. So two psychologists. Yeah. You know, existing as a personality trait with maybe two faces, you know, looking at vulnerable narcissism, we see where that vulnerable inner child starts to come out.

[02:06:49] Angela: Yes. And that's where a lot of us, I do think, you know, we need, you have to heal that inner child because there's um, there's a great PR treatment program out there called I F S, internal Family Systems, and that's all about parts therapy and it's all about the little wounded parts that we have within ourselves.

[02:07:11] And it's putting all those puzzle pieces together so you can be your authentic self instead of, you know, being all reactive and triggered by. , you know, certain people or certain events or certain smells or certain, you know, even someone's laughter could trigger you because you, you had a trauma.

[02:07:31] Jeffrey Besecker: No, we went a couple episodes back.

[02:07:34] It looked at that area of that kind of vulnerable, anxious insecurity. We often first experienced as a child. We hold onto that where it's characterized by hypersensitivity and sort of a need for defensiveness to feel safe. Yes. At the height of that, when we feel our most disempowered, we withdraw, we pull back, we shrink, becoming even more vulnerable in our emotionality and our feelings.

[02:08:06] Angela: Yes. But when it's a narcissist, they want to feel powerful. Mm-hmm. , they wanna feel in control, and so that's where they use a person as a tool to feel that way. . That's why they manipulate. That's why they gaslight. That's why they stonewall. So then they're more superior than you.

[02:08:27] Jeffrey Besecker: Mm-hmm. . So in that regard, then we're shifting into that grandiose narcissism where they're trying to feel that sense of superiority again.

[02:08:40] Angela: Yes. And even the covert can do the same exact thing, you know, to you because you know, they passively aggressively insulted you and now they feel better about themselves.

[02:08:53] Jeffrey Besecker: That's easy to see. Then where that sense of self importance then becomes such a prominent feature where we're trying to say simply I matter because I lack that feeling of matter.

[02:09:07] Right. Because I'm not feeling fulfilled in that. You know, I feel that need, you know, the necessity to control others to then exert. , my sense of manipulation, control to say, I will get what I need.

[02:09:26] Angela: Yes. And they can either go about that a direct way or indirect way, . And it's just knowing how to spot it. You know how to spot it.

[02:09:35] And it's, yeah, it's like what are the, what are the behaviors, what are the traits? What are, what are the signs? And, and that's how we all get manipulated and taken advantage of. Because we don't know the traits, we don't know the signs, we don't know the patterns. And we need to know, we need to know them to keep ourselves safe and to keep our sanity.

[02:09:58] I'm gonna

[02:09:58] Jeffrey Besecker: shift a little bit here and this might be a reach, so I hope this doesn't become challenging to you as someone who's experienced narcissistic abuse. But I feel it warrants looking at, you know, it's fascinating to observe how trait level. Grandiosity and vulnerability coexistent everyday.

[02:10:19] People like you and me in many regards, we each dis display some level of narcissist. Ah, we each display some level of narcissism throughout our interactions. Yet we often form those stigmas about the narcissism that others display. You know, some days we each feel super pumped up about ourselves and ready to conquer the world somewhat of a grandiose, narcissistic trait that becomes beneficial.

[02:10:53] I want to throw that in there for contrast so we can see how that interaction happens at interplay. Yet there's other days where we ourselves shrink. and feel, you know, we've been conquered by the world, you know, as after a breakup or a difficult day at work, that conflict we may have experienced with a significant other, and we kind of feel that vulnerable, narcissistic trait that sometimes can arise that tiptoes us up to those indirect and direct ways that we then communicate.

[02:11:37] You know, the question then arise. Go ahead, .

[02:11:40] Angela: I'm trying to figure out the question that

[02:11:42] Jeffrey Besecker: you're, that that's more of an aside. That's, it's kind of a, an insight overview and hoping to bridge where that line starts to gray. You know how sometimes we just lump that ball of clay that says either you're narcissistic or you're not.

[02:11:59] This is the most extreme form yet there is that subtle shade of gray, each of us. Casually tiptoes up to on occasion.

[02:12:10] Angela: Well, lemme see if I can answer this question the best way that I'm, I'm hearing it. Or indirectly hearing . Yeah. Cause it feels like it's indirectly hearing it. So there is, I believe it is healthy for everyone to have that sense of self-worth and a sense of self pride and to have self-esteem.

[02:12:29] I believe, and confidence all of that is healthy. All of that is positive. Okay. And being a confident person is important. It it, it is, it is needed. Because to me, everyone should be loved and accepted. Every, everyone should have a voice, there should be quality, all of that. Okay. Where it becomes, for me, narcissistic is where I'm better than you.

[02:12:55] I'm more important than you. What I have to say is more important than you. What I think is more important than you. That is where, , it crosses the line to where it's not equality anymore, it's now split thinking. It's either you're with me or you are against me. And it's that wall of of separation. And so I want people to have a sense of pride.

[02:13:24] I want people to value themselves and, and feel good and be happy and go go about their life. And when you are that way, you're being kind to other people. You're showing mutual respect to other people. You're showing decency. But when it's someone that's narcissistic, they don't, the only time they do it is when they love bomb you because they want something from.

[02:13:49] And when you have that healthy self-esteem and that healthy, you know, outlook on life, you're not trying to manipulate people. You're not trying to take advantage of people. You are ex, you're embracing people for all their indifferences. That's why I say we're all perfectly imperfect. You're embracing everyone's imperfections.

[02:14:09] You're not shaming them or insulting them or making them feel like they're, they're, they're stupid or they're worthless. And so there's, you know, if, I think I answered, hopefully I answered it correctly, but

[02:14:24] Jeffrey Besecker: there is no, that was a very vague question that simply asked, where might we step up into that shade of gray, where we slip over the edge into those mo more covert areas of narcissism.

[02:14:37] So, In hindsight now, . Okay, so, so if

[02:14:41] Angela: you're, how you slipping that way is, it's okay. I'm gonna give a perfect example. Let's say you became a celebrity and you go out to a restaurant and the waiter's not, you say to the waiter, don't you know who I am? Mm-hmm. , to me, that's narcissistic. I don't need to announce who I, it's very

[02:15:01] Jeffrey Besecker: overt in it's narcissism.

[02:15:04] Angela: In many ways, it's, I don't need to tell you who I am, I don't, you know, it's like, I, I was raised, and I saw this recently, there was a meme I saw recently where some celebrities shaking the janitor's hand, and he said, I was raised to show respect to all people and all professions. And so yes, I'm gonna, I will shake, you know, the janitor's hand, I will wave at the garbage man.

[02:15:31] You know, I'm not gonna think that just, you know, because I'm an accountant, I, I'm better than him, you know, I have one up on him. I mean, he, he has a job. He's gotta put food on the table. So it's really, you know, that fine line, area of. Of mutual respect and common decency for, for everyone. And when you start to lose that, then um, maybe you need to do a reality check and be like, well, hey, I have been a little bit egotistical here.

[02:16:01] I let my career overshadow who I really am, or, or I won million, I'm won the lottery and now, you know, I think I'm better than everyone else.

[02:16:12] Jeffrey Besecker: And there again, we're looking back to assessing by that five factor model of personality. Personality not being permanent but transmutable, right? Yet we do have some kind of scaled models.

[02:16:25] We can measure and monitor ourselves for self, self-regulation, measure, and monitor ourself for self-regulation. I'm gonna repeat that because that was a little bit confusing. . I'm gonna put that in our show notes where we actually list those five factor models so we can go back and kind of evidence together and compare notes on that.

[02:16:47] Looking at that aspect. I'm gonna jump back just a second here In our conversation where you mentioned that celebrity saying, don't you know who I am? Sometimes that same sense of superiority, is it not also leveraged by everyday people like you and I In that same regard, don't you know who I am as a form of manipulation, a form of overpowering others?

[02:17:13] Angela: Well, and it's really putting your e to me, your your ego out there. It, it, it, it, it really is. Um, because it is the best way that I'm just popping in my head right now is many of us were taught to respect our elders. We are, we're taught to respect our elders. And when it comes to an elder that gets disrespected, they're gonna say, you know, Hey, weren't she taught to respect your elders?

[02:17:46] Because they do have a lot more wisdom and a lot more life experience. And sometimes that young teenager person thinks that I know it all because let's, let's agree. They do believe they know it all , but they really don't know it all. They really don't. And, and it's, it's hard sometimes. Yes. When you have to put someone in that, that position and you have to call 'em out on it.

[02:18:12] So spinning back to the celebrity, um, a lot of times it can be like they, they're seeking that extra attention. They're seeking that extra like, well, because I am a celebrity, maybe my dinner should be be for free. Yeah. You know, maybe, uh, because I am a celebrity, Entitlement. Yes. It's that sense of entitlement.

[02:18:37] And so I, I always believe with anyone, when you start to notice, you're getting that sense of entitlement. You, you need to remind yourself, who do you really wanna be? Do you wanna be a self-entitled person or do you really wanna be someone that is kind and caring? And it is, is nice to, you know, just everyone you know, wants equality because we, people can rub off on us.

[02:19:07] You know, you can have an agent that's really grooming you to be this self-entitled person. Mm-hmm. And who do you listen to? Because we can, all of us, we can lose our way in life. Let's just be honest here. We can lose our sense of self. We money can cloud our vision, fame can cloud our vision. You know, all these things can, can make us take on certain traits and behaviors that we don't like and didn't like.

[02:19:35] And it's like we gotta come back home to ourselves.

[02:19:40] Jeffrey Besecker: Pause with that. That was a very good point. I almost stepped on it. So . Pardon me for that. So circling back around to narcissistic abuse, isn't there very often a very real Im palpable subtext that signals don't, you know what I might do to you? That segues toward that kind of manipulation of imposing physical violence, you know, seeping into domestic violence.

[02:20:14] Angela: Yes. And it's really, really hard when you don't know who and what you're dealing with. Yeah. You can seriously get hurt because I know personally hand on. The person I was dealing with in that verbal reactive abuse situation, um, did something that I never thought my wildest dreams would happen, where they inflicted self-harm upon themselves and basically had me arrested for, honestly, for assault.

[02:20:53] And, um, and the officers were not aware of reactive abuse tactics. They were not a aware that they, you know, someone narcissistic can flip the switch and then hurt themselves. We've, we've seen this in movies. We've literally seen this stuff in movies where they will injure themselves and say, this person assaulted me.

[02:21:16] This person hurt me. I want them arrested. And it's, and it it is, it's has. So much damage on that person's, you know, self-esteem and self-worth and, and so really learning about reactive, you know, abuse is so important because there is the physical aspect, there is the verbal, you know, there's the mental, emotional and it's how do you safeguard yourself from that?

[02:21:49] Because when you snap, it's, you're going into the deep end and you lose your composure, you lose your sense of self. And, and for some people, a lot of times they say when you do snap, it is a form of P T S D because you've had so much abuse that it leads you up to breaking and snapping. And P T S D is a form of, you know, of trauma.

[02:22:15] And if you've had. Lots of abuse. When you can snap, you can also disassociate where you completely check out this self-protecting part of you comes out and lashes out at your abuser and then you don't even, you don't remember what happened. It's like you blacked out and that becomes even more scary. You know,

[02:22:40] Jeffrey Besecker: circling this to data from w Keith Campbell and various other research.

[02:22:52] Typically, you know, we associate those who identify as male with being more prominently featuring narcissistic characteristics and traits not to be inherent. Disempowering to the female gender, yet there's a very real threat, often felt simply by that male presence, somewhat of a condition dominance. On top of that, that societally we leverage where we signal and say that as a female also, you're automatically very disempowered.

[02:23:33] Angela: Right? Well, the percentage I think is like 75% of people that are narcissistic are males. 25% are females. And you have to think about it. The way that we talk, the way that we talk to kids and raise young boys is, you know, suck it up. Be a man. Men don't cry. Yeah. Men don't show their emotions. You know, vulnerability.

[02:23:55] If you show vulnerability, you're weak. All these messages we give young boys is so damaging and, and, and, and how We don't. allow open communication. Like talking about your feelings is, is, is bad. It's, it's taboo, you know? And, and let's be honest, uh, how many wo more women read self-help books than men do?

[02:24:23] More women go to therapy than men do. And all of it has to do with what was, how, what was modeled to us, the messages we received, and how we were conditioned growing up. Because there's nothing wrong with therapy. There's nothing wrong with vulnerability. There's nothing wrong with, you know, crying or sh or showing your feelings or saying what you need.

[02:24:44] To me, that's healthy. All of us should say what I like and what I dislike, what, you know, uh, this hurts my feelings. This, you know, doesn't hurt my feelings. We, we need to be more. We've seen that we need to just be more kind to each other, but when you can't. when kindness is thought of as a weakness, it's, it's, it's not making the world a better place.

[02:25:12] Jeffrey Besecker: Yeah. We typically view that model of narcissistic relationships from an either or one sidedness where one party is controlling and manipulating the other. One party is engaging in this, turning our, in our attention to when interpersonal conflict arises, can we often disregard the possibility or is it a possibility that both parties may be exhibiting narcissistic traits or be in full-blown narcissism?

[02:25:47] Yes. That's a very good question. . Yeah. Although maybe rare, does that happen?

[02:25:53] Angela: Um, well, there is something called secondary narcissism. . Yeah. And a lot of times victims, a lot of times victims do become temporarily narcissistic. Yes. They, they do. And so that narcissistic abuser is now dealing with someone that has temporarily narc is temporarily narcissistic and they're fighting with each other.

[02:26:19] And, and so it

[02:26:24] I mean, we're diving into a Yeah. And it

[02:26:26] Jeffrey Besecker: becomes that kind of slippery slope of stigma now. Yes. That we might often maybe be unaware of, I shutter to say neglect because that insinuates that we're doing it intentionally. It's often under-recognized. There it is. Well, it's a song and

[02:26:45] Angela: that might come into play.

[02:26:46] Yeah. I think when someone becomes, you know, temporarily narcisistic it, um, , it becomes a self-defense mechanism. Yes. You're trying to protect yourself and the, and you've, you've had an, you've had enough abuse and so you are angry and you are lashing out at your abuser and, and sometimes like that cut the narcissist gave you, you're bleeding your wounds upon everybody else.

[02:27:19] You're, you're, and, and it does trickle out onto your friends and onto your family, onto your coworkers. And a lot of people can be like, I don't know who you are anymore. And the thing is, is when you're a victim of that psychological abuse, it really does fry the circuits in your brain. You are not yourself.

[02:27:41] You've

[02:27:42] Jeffrey Besecker: essentially how towed to that path of gaslighting that then does shift your reality. That does. Then does shift you into that cognitive dissonance?

[02:27:55] Angela: Yes. Yeah. And it's, and I, I remember struggling with cognitive dissidents, my myself, because it's like, did they really just do that? Did they really just say that?

[02:28:08] And you think in your mind, you know, well, they were so loving and so kind and this and that when I met them. But that was just a facade to get you hooked. You know, that's why love bombing is so damaging is they come off as perceiving as someone else. And when the masks starts to slip and the behaviors start to come out, that really does create that cognitive dissidence because you're, you're questioning, you know, are they really narcissistic or are they really this kind loving person?

[02:28:45] It, it messes with your mind. Because not, we don't wanna think of someone as being evil and destructive and, and narcissistic. We wanna give them the benefit of the doubt.

[02:29:00] Jeffrey Besecker: You know, there was a little intention in that kind of probing, searching questions of might both parties be simultaneously exhibiting those narcissistic traits?

[02:29:13] Are there times when these narcissistic patterns then verge on becoming maybe vindictive or emotional vigilantism? It's a little

[02:29:24] Angela: bit loaded. It is a little bit loaded, but I think a lot of it has to do with self-awareness and self-control because all of us know that we all can, all of us have that trait inside of us where we can become evil.

[02:29:43] Let's, let's be honest, when it's like life or death or you feel completely threatened, all of us had the ability to turn into someone that we would never think possible. I mean, we've heard, we've heard of women where their kids are trapped underneath a car. And to save that child's life, they lift the car up and, and, and sometimes someone breaks into your house and you, you, you never thought that you would shoot a person, but you did in self-defense.

[02:30:14] And so we all are capable of, of doing things that goes beyond our normal characteristics and behaviors. And the key thing is when we start to display those behaviors that are damaging, destructive, and questionable, I feel that's when we need to do a self in inventory. , we really need to look at, you know, why am I acting this way?

[02:30:40] Why am I speaking this way? Why am I behaving this way? Who might be bringing the worst out in me? What's triggering this to happen within me? And really do some self-exploration and sometimes, um, asking friends and family members, because those are the ones that are gonna see you change the most. And it is hard, trust me.

[02:31:03] It's hard when someone, you know, loves you has to say to you, you know? Yeah. You have been irrational. Yeah. You have been narcissistic lately. Yeah. You have been lashing out in anger. And all of those are P PTs, you know, d i c warning signs. You could have hidden trauma and you don't even realize that all those behaviors you've been displaying is a sign of hidden trauma.

[02:31:28] Jeffrey Besecker: Yeah. Bring that up. As an aside, based on research conducted by the University of Illinois, department of Psychology. That suggests that abuse victims often utilize it as a form of empowering or vedi vindictive tool to regain that sense of positive self regard at the expense of being narcissistic themselves.

[02:31:49] I'm gonna leave that hanging out, I feel today, because that's a left turn into another episode. Oh no, that's beautiful. Okay, , that's a great way to frame it. You know, that leaves us open for further future exploration. Yes. As we near the end of our conversation today, Angela, you speak of that technique you call the endgame strategy.

[02:32:15] Share with us a little bit about that framework and how that begins to come into play.

[02:32:21] Angela: Okay. Um, I have five minutes, so I'm gonna try Yes. Cause I do have a meeting in five minutes. Great. So I'll try to explain this really quick. So the end game is realizing that the person is trying to get you to snap.

[02:32:35] they're really pushing the boundaries. They're pushing you over the edge, and you can feel yourself slipping into that fight, flight, freeze, or FAW mode. And those are the behaviors that have to do with your limbic brain, your survival, you know, it's, you're gonna make it irrational choice. And so I want people to first recognize that, hey, this is verbal.

[02:33:00] You know, this is reactive abuse. Whether it is gonna be physical or gonna be verbal, you gotta recognize that it is reactive abuse and it is a tactic to get you to snap. Okay? And, and so what I want people to do is, first I, I need them. do a redirection. Okay? You either need to walk away from the abuser, say, I need to use the restroom.

[02:33:27] Um, I, you, you gotta come up with something because they're gonna keep pushing you and pushing you. So you have to create distance. So once you can create distance and you can possibly walk away or redirect or change the subject, that's where I, I want people to, if they can, I say, go to the bathroom. Just close the door.

[02:33:50] It's that space. Calm down. There is a calm down technique you can do where you put one hand behind your neck, the other hand on your forehead. You wanna do it when you're sitting down. You really control your breathing and you just, you breathe in, you know, for, you can breathe in for the count of five, breathe out for the count of five, but you do it at least 10 times to get grounded, more centered.

[02:34:15] Then you need to ask yourself, what is the endgame? go over the conversation in your mind. What is this person trying to do? What are they asking of you? And, um, what can possibly be the consequences of your actions? Okay. And, and, and if you're a person that's into that, please, in appease mode, the best thing I say is don't agree.

[02:34:41] Don't say yes because that's your auto response. Knee-jerk reaction. Say, let me stop. Agree to disagree. . Yeah. Agree to disagree. Say, lemme think about it. Lemme think about it. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Really say, let me think about it. Just say, you know what? I'm not in the mood right now to think about it. You know, let me think about it.

[02:34:59] And that can just be your response. Let me think about it. Let me think about it. Let me think about it. Instead of saying, yes, let me think about it. And, but really look at the end, end game because. , you can find yourself in a situation where you know they're gonna win. And sometimes if you realize they need a win, then give them the win.

[02:35:22] And the win could be, yes, you're right. I was stupid. Mm-hmm. , even though you know you're not stupid, even just letting them have that small win is fi. If it saves you from snapping, do it. Because it can be used against you. Literally used against you. So you can agree like, yes, you were right. I was stupid in that.

[02:35:44] And just to get 'em off your back. Because the thing is, is if you keep pushing and pushing and you fight and you push back, then they can say, we'll see, she pushed me. She was the abuser. Or he was the abuser. And then you find yourself in this whole can of worms. So the end game technique is really creating distance, calming yourself down and thinking of the end game.

[02:36:09] What are the consequences of. my actions. If I do this, what if, if I don't do that, what can happen? What is the conversation? Can, will I spend jail time if I do that, mm-hmm. , will I lose custody of my kids if I say this? It's really, really dissecting it in your cortex brain where you have that rational thinking instead of irrational.

[02:36:34] And so , my main concern is really wanting to teach people a technique that I created called the End Game that protects you from snapping and allows you to make rational choices instead of having regrets maybe the rest of your life.

[02:36:54] Jeffrey Besecker: I wanna thank you for sharing such a relevant, pertinent insight. Hopefully this endgame technique helps us come a little closer to an end of the confusion we often feel when dealing with narcissistic abuse. Namaste, the Lighten Me. Acknowledges The lighten you. This truly has been such a amazing, fascinating chance to learn and discover more about this pertinent topic.

[02:37:19] Angela: Thank you for having me today. Truly appreciate you. I want you to have a great, great

[02:37:25] Jeffrey Besecker: moment. I'm so grateful. Thank you. Have a great day. I know you have to run. I do. and I'll touch base with you again soon, hun. Okay. Thank you so much. All right. You take care. Take care.

[02:37:36] We'll talk soon. Be

[02:37:36] Angela: blessed. All right. Okay. Bye.