Breaking Down Barriers: Addressing Mental Health Stigmas with Alexandra Miles

Breaking Down Barriers: Addressing Mental Health Stigmas with Alexandra Miles

Jeffrey Besecker:
This is The Light Inside. I'm Jeffrey Besecker. Social Stigmas. Surfacing as deeply ingrained behavioral patterns in our societal structure, stigmas manifest as collective attitudes or biases which can perpetuate discrimination and reinforce societal norms. They hold a profound influence, shaping cultural norms, revealing how they can both adaptively guide and maladaptively constrain our collective behaviors and beliefs. Think of them as the double-edged sword of social influence.

On one hand, they can set high standards and promote values. But on the other, they perpetuate discrimination and stone acceptance of diverse mental health experiences. Buckle up, because today we're unraveling how these powerful forces can both support and sabotage our understanding and treatment of mental health. And with a subtle warning, to be aware of their impact on both individual lives and social perspectives. This dual impact illustrates how social stigmas can both support and undermine our collective understanding and treatment of mental health issues. We're joined by Alexandra Miles, co-founder of Project Blackbird, a nonprofit dedicated to connecting diverse communities and eliminating the shame surrounding mental health. We explore the hidden influences steering our collective attitudes toward mental health and how we begin untangling their complex effects. Tune in to find out how understanding and developing unitive ego theories, emotional competency, and social conflation break down these stigmas that hold us back, when we return to The Light Inside. When it comes to mobile service providers, with their high-rate plans, extra fees, and hidden cost or expenses, many of the big-name networks leave a bad taste in your mouth. Mint Mobile is a new flavor of mobile network service, sharing all the same reliable features of the big name brands, yet at a fraction of the cost. I recently made the change to Mint Mobile and I can't believe the monthly savings, allowing me to put more money in my pocket for the things which truly light me up inside. Making the switch to Mint Mobile is easy. Hosted on the T-Mobile 5G network, Mint gives you premium wireless service on the nation's largest 5G network. With bulk savings on flexible plan options, Mint offers 3-, 6-, and 12-month plans, and the more months you buy, the more you save. Plus, you can also keep your current phone or upgrade to a new one, keep your current number or change to a new one as well, and all of your contact's apps and photos will seamlessly and effortlessly follow you to your new low-cost Mint provider. Did I mention the best part? You keep more money in your pocket. And with Mint's referral plan, you can rescue more friends from big wireless bills while earning up to $90 for each referral. visit our Mint Mobile affiliate link at thelightinside.site forward slash sponsors for additional mobile savings or activate your plan in minutes with the Mint Mobile app. In 2021, eating disorders had the second-highest mortality rate of any mental health diagnosis, second only to the opioid crisis. Social stigmas led to discrimination, social exclusion, and reduced access to health care, significantly hindering effective treatment and increasing mortality rates among sufferers. For Savannah, Georgia-based producer and actor Alexandra Miles, disordered eating is a daily struggle, exasperated by social stigma and emotional turmoil. Imagine a world where overcoming internal and societal barriers to mental health isn't just a possibility, but a reality. Founder of the related non-profit Project Blackbird Inc., Alexandra tours college campuses and Fortune 500 companies with an event addressing mental health stigma in underrepresented communities. Today, she is currently producing E.D., a narrative feature thriller depicting the diversity and relationships behind the walls of an eating disorder treatment center, and the monster, Ed, living within each mind of its patients. Project Blackbird is dedicated to de-stigmatizing mental health issues. Despite over 40 million Americans living with mental health conditions, stigma remains pervasive. Alexandra, our community is glad to host you. Thanks for joining us today.

Alexandra Miles: Thank you so much for having me. Excited to be here.

Jeffrey Besecker: Gratefully explore how we can address the role cultural and social stigmas play in our ability to experience optimal mental health. Alexandra, cultural and social stigmas are shown to have a significant impact on how we collectively address mental health, often creating social tensions that hinder our ability to collectively experience better mental health. What are the key systemic factors that perpetuate cultural and social stigmas and why do they have such a strong impact from your perspective?

Alexandra Miles: Well, I think the inevitable is that we have reached a point in our society where you can't place blame. You can't place faults. We woke up. Nobody asks to be anxious. Nobody asks to be depressed. Nobody asks to struggle with mental health. But I think acknowledging that you've woken up and it's here and not placing blame or fault on it, but from a societal standpoint, how can we take responsibility as a society for the mental health struggles that have developed? How can we change that from a systemic standpoint? versus so the individual looks at it differently than society looks at it. I think of mental health as kind of just a spectrum of where your mind is at at the moment. I actually think of anxiety and depression, and this might be controversial, but personally, I think of it more as a symptom than a label or an illness. And I think I think it's about figuring out why are these symptoms coming out in me right now? I mean, anxiety, if you think about it, anxiety could be a symptom of trauma. It could be a symptom of having caffeine. It could be a symptom of, you know, like there are so many reasons that one might experience anxiety. And I think we've become so accustomed as labeling it as a negative diagnosis or something to that manner. But instead it is just a state of being of the mind in that moment based on a variety of things. But it really is a spectrum. It's not a yes or no, you know, for me personally, I think.

Jeffrey Besecker: Interesting point of contention as we get ready to lean in here of how even that idea of pathologizing, which is just essentially understanding the path of the behavior and why it happens, yet that act itself can sometimes become stigmatized culturally. From my perspective, I know I've observed that and I've formed that as one potential perspective where sometimes that idea comes up of pathologizing it. That gets its own narrative, its own story, its own way of viewing it. And that's about as broad as I'll try to push it out so it doesn't itself become stigmatizing. Which is fun because, you know, most of our subconscious and unconscious patterns, most of the way we battle with things is simply because we don't just consider all the different ways we can look at those perspectives. Yeah. Yeah. Start to venture into generalization. We start to discount ideas and we start to subtract things that we're not aware of and all of this. So with that in mind. This is going to be an interesting conversation. I know we've traded some really interesting ideas of how to start unraveling this social phenomena, this cultural phenomena of stigma regarding mental health. So I'm grateful to explore how we can each address the role cultural and social stigmas play in our ability to experience optimal mental health.

Alexandra Miles: It's a big one. We're going to tackle it in an hour.

Jeffrey Besecker: what I think will make some good headway at least establishing what some of the systems are that influence this cultural phenomenon.

Alexandra Miles: Yeah. Well, I think what I found through the organization through doing this tour is the stigma around mental health is something experienced by various different communities in slightly different ways. But it's very similar. This concept of labeling mental health struggle as bad or shameful. I think because it's been so silenced for so many generations, that's kind of what began that stigma. But I think it's reinforced then by media, by social media, by film, by what we see represented on screen, what we see represented out on Instagram or in daily life. We don't see a lot of individuals openly discussing mental health in certain communities. And therefore, that reinforces this stigma of, well, it doesn't happen in my world. So if I'm experiencing it, I better keep quiet because I am the only one. I think the other issue is that a lot of studies that have been done on different symptoms of mental health struggles, anxiety, depression, A lot of these studies are done using the white male population or various populations that don't include certain underrepresented communities. And so I think the problem there is we don't even know and understand how vast and diverse the area of mental health experiences are impacting individuals. We don't realize how vast that's become because we're not even studying every individual that exists on this planet.

Jeffrey Besecker: It's interesting for me then to just acknowledge here how such a polarization exists simply because we lack that exposure to diverse cultures, to diverse social aspects of livelihood.

Alexandra Miles: Yeah, 100%. And I do think that there are measures that are starting to be put in place to gather more data around that. But I think we're just hitting the tip of the iceberg here with research and with even determining how much of a need we have to address mental health. I mean, I can tell you there is a great need to address it, but we haven't even seen how big that need is yet.

Jeffrey Besecker: From that historic aspect, it's interesting to see how our awareness of mental health has shaped and evolved. Within the last 20 years, we can see vast improvements of what we know about social emotional learning, social intelligence, social competency, understanding even how to name and identify our emotions.

Alexandra Miles: Absolutely. I think a piece of that, I think it's good and bad. I think now that now that we've started to be able to name some of these feelings, anxiety, depression, all of that, now that we've started to be able to name those feelings, I think we might be losing touch with being really in tune with ourselves to heal those feelings. because sometimes it becomes a diagnosis instead of a state of being. So labeling, okay, I have anxiety. And then it becomes, okay, well, I will take a pill to heal it. And I'm not here to say that it's right or wrong. Everyone finds a solution in their own manner. But I think the one positive thing to not necessarily labeling, but back before we were able to discuss or label these experiences, There's a good chance that it really was, okay, I'm feeling this feeling inside. I feel a tightness in my stomach, a tightness in my chest. I'm having trouble breathing. I don't know what this is, but this feels wrong. Okay. I just took a breath and now I feel better. And, and I think it is quite possible that there was more of a connection with self and then more of an ability to heal that state of being instead of just determining, well, I am anxious. I am instead of just identifying as this condition being something as a permanent state, as a negative permanent state. Instead of that, we were identifying it maybe more as just a state of being in that moment and able to heal it.

Jeffrey Besecker: I feel that's an interesting area to kind of earmark today, looking at how we relate perspectives, looking at how we relate to identification in that sense of self. So I feel as we get into the conversation a little deeper here, we'll maybe bridge that gap and start to dissect that a little bit. So, bringing us back today to the stigma, let's focus on the stigma and the relationship within that, the social and cultural aspects of it. Many individuals experience mental health conditions but face significant barriers due to these stigmas. Can you explain what social stigmas are and how they affect individuals with mental health conditions?

Alexandra Miles: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the stigma within these different populations, different groups, how mental health is addressed, how it's seen. Different marginalized communities have different ways of dealing with mental health, different ways of speaking about mental health. It's very hidden in a lot of cultures. I know I experienced a lot of stigma in my own. My partner, Kendra Williams, who comes with me with Project Blackbird, experienced a lot of stigma in her community. These various communities being the Latinx community, the black community, faith-based community, a multitude of different faiths, similar messaging when it comes to mental health that it's not okay to not be okay. It's terrifying to start speaking about something that you're going through and you almost convinced yourself that it's faith. that you're not going through these experiences because it's so silenced within these communities. And part of that is because those communities are not necessarily being asked or acknowledged or listened to by their practitioners. We specifically tackle the eating disorder space. And within the eating disorder space, many individuals, if they don't meet the physical requirements of an eating disorder, are not really being asked about their symptoms. So You might think in one of these marginalized community, if that's your world, if that's your community, you might think, well, I'm experiencing these different thoughts, these different reoccurring thoughts around food. I am exhibiting behaviors, but I'm telling my doctor that and I'm not being asked the question. So maybe I don't have anything wrong with me and nobody else in my community is talking about it. I don't hear others talking about it. So I must just quiet these thoughts. I'm the only one, I'm the only one experiencing that. And then this stigma is reinforced after time again and again and again because of this blanket silence.

Jeffrey Besecker: So in that regard, I'm going to relate that to one of the more prevalent or more common subconscious patterns that can inherently trip us up throughout life, overgeneralization. In a lot of ways, we're being overgeneralized in our health assessments. doctors who are just trying to fit us into a mold, you know, are we going to a specialized medical practitioner or are we going to a specialized mental health practitioner? A lot of times do you feel there's a social disparity there simply in how a doctor approaches addressing mental health and how a mental health practitioner might focus on it.

Alexandra Miles: Absolutely. And I actually think this is a larger topic and a larger issue for all communities. I really think there should be more education around addressing mental health when you're with an internist, when you're with your primary care doctor. I don't think that you should need to go and see necessarily psychiatrists, psychologists in order to address mental health. I think if we can get to the point where we're really looping mental health into overall health, I think that's where we need to be for all communities. For example, you might go and see your doctor because you're experiencing trouble breathing. Well, it turns out you have a deviated septum, so now you're going to go see a specialist. Can we look at mental health the same way? I'm looking at this individual as a whole. They're experiencing symptoms of XYZ that are related to mental health. Okay, maybe can we go see a specialist to take this one step further? But I think that there needs to be a baseline of more education around maybe, or I should say a baseline of engaging with patients in the realm of mental health and really asking those questions to all patients in the environment of a primary care visit and not just in the environment of a psychologist, psychiatrist.

Jeffrey Besecker: So in that regard, it's interesting to see how we can get mixed messages culturally sometimes based on the assumption of where that treatment model is going to go, based on the medical model and how that sometimes gets pushed more toward pharmacology and medicating versus actually going in and doing some of the somatic embodied work and some of the language there, looking at talk therapies, you know, there's such a diverse range in scope of treatment modalities that it creates an inherent generalization first and foremost, that it creates a lot of apprehension, anxiety, and confusion for the individual going through the treatment path. 100%.

Alexandra Miles: For one, I can very much relate to those disparities within my background and my prior mental health struggles. I'll just quickly transparent and candid so that the listeners know a little bit where I'm coming from here. But I was diagnosed with anorexia nervosa back in 2018. At the time, my disorder looked very different from the textbook case that I had learned about in high school and nobody around me discuss anything about eating disorders. I was living in a culture where diets were validated, where exercise was validated. My disorder did not look like the restriction that I saw in textbooks. I transparently was still having three meals a day. I had never skipped a meal. So how could I possibly have an eating disorder? And nobody in my world, in my community talked about it. I live in a very food-based culture. Nobody spoke about this. So how could I possibly have an eating disorder? My doctors were even saying, well, you're exercising every day and you're fine. There's no way that you have an eating disorder. I was told that, you know, in the room. So what are some methods that we can use to combat that? I think really it is training on kind of signs to look for as well. What to look for, questions to ask. I think one of the really tough things around mental health is that some of the symptoms that are mental health based are really, really difficult to pinpoint or to see. It's hard to know unless you're really digging in with an individual what they're experiencing because everybody has a different baseline. And sometimes individuals don't even know how to recognize or acknowledge that something has changed or that something is wrong. And this may be going off on a little tangent, but I remember saying at some point when I, um, when I had this moment of kind of starting to feel much better on the anxiety side, I remember saying, I have no idea. This is what somebody's stomach felt like chest felt like. I didn't know that this feeling existed because my baseline was my body was in constant trauma mode. My body was quite literally experiencing a different feeling than somebody else was. And I just, I didn't have anything to compare it to. So I think maybe having training on questions to ask patients to really identify what is it that they're feeling on a day to day that has to do with mental health. Again, those, those stomach feelings, those chest feelings, um, having different words to identify with patients. And, um, and I work with a lot of different clinicians that will go into college campuses that will go in with primary care doctors to do training specifically on eating disorders and how to notice the signs and symptoms, how to ask and then how to engage and support once they realize that one of their patients might be experiencing something in that manner. But the same thing goes for a variety of different mental health related symptoms.

Jeffrey Besecker: From that aspect, if I'm reading this right and if I'm getting a sense for where you were in your line of treatment, there was almost a bit of invalidation that was going on subconsciously, unconsciously, more than anything probably, where you're relaying that you have that direct connection. You're experiencing that autonomic response within your autonomic ladder where you're dysregulated. Medically, do you feel there might be a gap then in even acknowledging that response in our emotion from a physical and somatic level?

Alexandra Miles: Absolutely. I think it's, it's very complicated. Um, I think when you have, it's almost this snowball effect when you start to look at different mental health struggles, um, one, where did they come from? And then what are those symptoms then contributing to you talk about the gut brain relationship you talk about, and then there's this concept, what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Well, they really, it should be other. Um, with the eating disorder specifically, when you start to restrict food, your neurological pathways stop functioning as they had before you quite literally, um, there are different biological and I won't get into the specifics, but there are certain biological responses that your body has to food restrictions. And, um, and in the beginning, it's actually very positive. You feel empowered, you have energy, Well, it's a fake response to not having enough of those nutrients, because eventually when you deprive your body, that flips on its head. You start to have brain fog. You're not you're not thinking clearly or properly. You're not interacting. You're not remembering. Your brain is quite literally falling apart. And so from that standpoint, when you say, you know, how do you acknowledge that you have something wrong with you? I shouldn't say wrong. It's not wrong. But how do you acknowledge that you're in a different place in your mind than where you're, where you would like to be. How do you acknowledge that you might be struggling? Well, then that becomes incredibly complicated because one, you're not at the place where your mind might even be able to acknowledge because you have now changed the way that your brain is receiving messages. You've now changed those neurological pathways. At the same time, you circle back to where are those symptoms coming from? Symptoms of anxiety, symptoms of restriction. If you're engaging in bulimic behaviors, all of these different symptoms, a lot of times it's your body trying to protect you. Maybe it came from trauma and it's your body trying to protect you from trauma. So now you have this symptom that you're experiencing, this voice inside your head, I'll say, that is saying, please don't cure or help whatever struggle I'm going through, because I'm doing this to protect you. I'm doing this to protect you, Alexandra. Please don't get help. You know, so you're going through this internal battle. It's incredibly difficult as that individual struggling to want to come out of even that struggle.

Jeffrey Besecker: That is such a monumental struggle and such a monumental impact to have to navigate as you're going through that treatment. So I commend you for vulnerably sharing that. Thank you. Thank you. That has to be such a difficult part of that journey.

Alexandra Miles: Yeah. And I think it's something that's really important, actually, for a lot of individuals to understand, to one, have a little bit of compassion. I think we're so quick because we we can't possibly take on the pain of everybody in this world. You know, we have to set our own boundaries. I think as a society, we're so quick to look down on mental health struggle because we don't want to think that we want to almost put blame on that individual for going through it, because we can't possibly acknowledge that And maybe it's not their fault. Maybe there's pain behind it because that means taking on the pain of everyone. Sometimes it's hard for an individual to do that. It's a lot of weight to carry the pain of every individual. But if we can start to have compassion around mental health struggles, realizing that they're coming from somewhere, realizing that it's incredibly difficult and near impossible for that individual to ignite their own recovery. Maybe as a society we can start to put systems in place to help that individual until they are able to help themselves, until they are in a mental place to be able to help themselves. When you look at depression and maybe you get really frustrated if you have a friend or family member that is depressed and won't put in the work themselves to get themselves out of that place, we'll recognize that the brain is actually experiencing something very different in that state that is trying desperately to hold them in that place of the depressive symptoms, hold them in that place of depression. Can you help and can you support to bring them out of that place at least enough to the place where they can start to put measures in place themselves to help improve those symptoms or to help prevent them from returning?

Jeffrey Besecker: Stepping back here a bit, you know, looking at that idea of lack of understanding in education and how that illustrates our awareness of not only mental health issues, but our understanding of our emotionality. And we're going to go back a step here to how we look at that idea as being very linear, just in how we become emotionally activated, how we become emotionally regulated. You know, we see that as a linear process, but as you pointed out, there has to be some level of understanding of that cascading effect of it's not linear and it doesn't always surface the same throughout our body processing. Going back to an educational level, as we're starting to discover this culturally now, as we're starting to gain more awareness of those processes, do you feel that that educational element now has to go back into the education systems all the way back to elementary school? and starting to understand reconnecting with that feeling, reconnecting with that somatic response going to the source rather than acknowledging the symptom as we so classically and traditionally have.

Alexandra Miles: Absolutely. I think that there's a lot of work to be done actually in that elementary space, the childhood space. I think a piece of it, like you said, is teaching and almost maybe not teaching, but maintaining that ability to be connected with self. Because I think a lot of children do innately have that ability to I mean, they're so connected with themselves until they become disconnected as they grow older. And I think that's something that that society does, but also just biologically, you know, a child is very me, me, me, the world as a child, quite literally in your brain, the world is revolving around you. as you grow up. And that's not in a negative way. That's just how we're wired. And I think before a child can even speak, they're crying when they're hungry. They're very connected to everything within. So I think it's really about maintaining that. But I also think that there's a lot of work to be done in terms of making sure that children are vocalizing as they get older, what they are internalizing and and what they're thinking. So much of what we experience comes from what happened is, you know, childhood and how we have learned to internalize messages, how we speak to ourselves is often informed by what we've experienced during childhood. So for example, if every child in elementary school ages was maybe encouraged once a week to talk to somebody about their world, say dad is working out every single day, child thinks, um, well, my dad doesn't love me because he's never with me. And, you know, and he's always at the gym. Well, speaking with somebody, maybe somebody can help the child reshape and reframe that experience. Well, actually, physical strength can be an outlet to decompress, you know, just, um, get out floss, you know, this, this doesn't have anything to do with you. Dad had a long workday. So dad is going and strength is important, keeping your bones healthy, you know, just reframing what that looks like. And then all of a sudden, maybe as a child, you immediately disconnect from this message of I am not worth it, or I am not enough because my parent doesn't love me. Well, you know, it has nothing to do with that, but that is those little, little experiences. Uh, it shapes so much in a child. So I think, um, talk therapy, maybe not labeled as such as a child or label to say, you know, um, uh, I don't really have the answers as far as that goes, but I think being able to talk through these things with children. And then, like you said, in those elementary ages, just making sure to relay the importance of maintaining that connection with your body, with those feelings, with those sensory experiences, keeping that before society has a chance to disconnect.

Jeffrey Besecker: It's interesting to approach and very overwhelming sometimes. I'm going to acknowledge sometimes it feels overwhelming to approach because there are so many different nuanced components that start to come out as we dissect these various systems and the way they come together socially. So many are going back to looking at social programming. Where do we start with a child? If we have parents who aren't in that understanding loop of emotional intelligence, emotional competency, a lot of times they're bringing in that generational element of their programming. So much so where we go to the point of how do you start to talk to a child if you're not an adult who's been on that healing journey becomes a challenge because you have all of these programs in subconscious and unconscious models. It's not safe to talk about it being the core one where you don't feel safe and secure to talk about and express emotions whether they're your originating emotions, whether that interaction comes in, and there's a lot of nuanced dynamics. There's a lot of ways throughout our program where we're going to start pulling some of those elements apart and really looking at things like inference and transference, where even how we relate to others' emotions, sometimes we start to speculate and project. what our belief about their emotion is based on that past conditioning. What do we do? We form a social stigma that then says, well, now I'm fearful of all conditioning. So that fear response comes in. And now that idea of conditioning becomes stigmatized subconsciously, unconsciously and consciously. But mainly from that unconscious aspect that we don't feel that sense of safety and security, that felt embodied sense of psychological comfort and psychological safety.

Alexandra Miles: Yeah. Well, oh, there's so much to be said in that. I think from the adult standpoint, from a lot of generations in the past, I mean, experiencing a symptom like that could quite literally mean you are out of a job. You don't have your shelter, security, you're exiled from society, so to speak. So I think that there's a certain trauma in that from certain communities, from certain generations I think if the parents, as you mentioned, if we're able to change our mindset as a society within adults, that maybe these mental health struggles are not necessarily a permanent diagnosis, but rather a momentary symptom. And if we can start to kind of look at it differently and speak about it differently as almost like a mystery. I see that so and so is experiencing this symptom. Where is that coming from? If we can start to just get curious and instead of labeling, instead of deciding this is an identity of that person, they are anxious, generalized anxiety. That's what it is, you know, and that's going to be forever. So, you know, instead of if we can start to look at that differently and say, OK, I see that this child is exhibiting some symptoms that may allude to anxiety. Why is that happening? You know, what is going on for that individual? And and then I think from that standpoint, there's a multitude of things that could be experiences that they're going through, traumatic and or otherwise. It could be what they're eating. It could be coffee. You know, it could be generational trauma, something that was triggered. You have no idea. But as soon as you can start to get curious, now you can have this conversation with your children where you can really address what's going on underneath instead of just putting on a Band-Aid and say, and I think the most validating thing you can do is approach it with the mindset of just get over it. because that is what's telling our next generation, A, that it's a problem, that it is a problem to have any kind of a mental health challenge or struggle. And B, that's exactly what's going to perpetuate the issue and leave that individual in a state of what feels like permanent mental health struggle.

Jeffrey Besecker: Now, I think it's crucial at that aspect to realize where we need to teach that new model, not just moving past an emotion, but being with an emotion and sitting with an emotion. Not lingering in an emotion then becomes kind of a complex thing. How are we interacting? How are we relating from which aspect in which piece or part of ourselves, which perspective or narrative of ourselves are we relating? You know, we have to be able to understand that complex system personally, first and foremost. Do you feel there are large gaps in how we currently perceive that?

Alexandra Miles: I absolutely do. I don't think it's impossible to close those gaps, but I do think at the moment there are large gaps to that. I think what makes it really difficult, I see a number of individuals that are beginning for themselves to close those gaps. The problem is one, it takes time because we're so conditioned to do differently. It does really take time to reestablish the way we respond to our own emotions. For example, I snap at a friend. If I can validate within myself, OK, whatever just happened, I was angry. I was annoyed. Why was I annoyed? Did I need to respond like that? What was my body doing? Was I trying to protect something? Yes. Well, they said something that made me it triggered in me. Well, I am I'm not working hard enough because they said, well, your deadline is by the end of the day. And that triggered something in me because I already thought, well, I'm not working hard enough. Can I adjust the way that I'm working? What is valid? What is not? I mean, it takes time. And I think that that time is really daunting for a number of individuals. I think also it's about teaching both the older and younger generations at the same time so that we can all communicate on the same level around mental health. But I do think that closing that gap is possible.

Jeffrey Besecker: In our program, we talk a lot about thinking models themselves, and I know there's a lot of kind of slippery slope with relating to only thinking because so much of our emotional response is embodied semantically. Even looking at the stigmatization between somehow the brain becomes disembodied in our perspective, yet it's still a part of the same body. It's still an embodied somatic response starts to create a lot of diverse narratives. I'm trying to dissect where some of these stigmas start to creep in. We have to first acknowledge that the brain works with the body. They're a cohesive unit that works together in various aspects. They have different roles. It's a community of me, It's a community of us who is also connected to the rest of the embodied community of humanity. We have to start to unravel some of those perspectives. But going back to that idea of thinking, you know, so often we go to dichotomy, black and white thinking. Either I'm focused on this one aspect, or I'm focused on that, creates stigma. We have to be able to step out of that singular thinking no matter what part of the system of stigma we're looking at, no matter what part of the human element we're looking at. It's so essential that we move beyond that singularity of focus no matter what we're looking at.

Alexandra Miles: Yeah, completely agreed. Absolutely.

Jeffrey Besecker: If there's any element of this conversation today, let that be one of our starting points is simply being able to consider the different elements, the different perspectives.

Alexandra Miles: And I think that comes maybe with one, removing labeling. In my opinion, I think that does come with looking at mental health as just a state of being in that moment instead of, again, as a permanent label. Where are you right now? How are you feeling right now? A symptom, not a diagnosis.

Jeffrey Besecker: Let's look at that from the aspect of framing. How we create that narrative and how we choose to view that perspective. The act of identifying the behavior, the process, where it's occurring in us. Do you believe in some regard this essential to at least be able to acknowledge what's going on and how it's playing out?

Alexandra Miles: I do, absolutely. I mean, hands down, if you ignore it, again, it invalidates it more. It actually makes it grow stronger. At some point, it's going to manifest in more hurt towards yourself, towards others. But it's incredibly invalidating to the self to say, no, I am not experiencing the feeling that I'm actually experiencing. So, yes, I mean, to answer your question very simply, yes.

Jeffrey Besecker: We have to sometimes pick each little element apart and start with that simplicity. We have to be able to find the little nuances, the little micro instances of how something occurs before we can consider that more macro or ultimately that meta perspective of understanding that being human is ultimately complex. But we have to start with down to those basic elements. From that aspect, What's coming to mind for me now is looking at that aspect of personalization from a psychological model. Have you approached that idea of personalization and identification in your own healing journey of how we associate to our own experiences?

Alexandra Miles: Absolutely. I have tried and continue to try to look at this concept of or try trying to utilize this concept of radical acceptance. I alluded to it a little bit earlier, but this concept of when I'm experiencing an emotion instead of telling myself that I'm not angry, acknowledging that I am angry, but trying to get curious where it's coming from. I think one of the nicest things about that, too, especially as someone who was a little bit of a people pleaser. I think I was turning off these emotions because I was so focused on being a better version of myself for others. But by doing so, I was really becoming this inauthentic version of myself. I was hurting myself by enabling myself to just acknowledge through radical acceptance what I was going through. I actually had more genuine compassion for others. Because then I started to see their nuanced struggles as, again, just a feeling that they were experiencing that was based on something else. I started to really unravel what was going on for another individual. I started really looking at other individuals and seeing them. not just looking at them, but seeing them, which in turn made me more compassionate and more authentic. Um, so I think kind of circling back to the very beginning, how do we help others feel safe, acknowledging what's happening for them? How do we end this kind of stigma? I think it starts with yourself. It starts with an individual. If you can start really addressing your own emotions, your own experiences, your own struggles, you end up seeing others differently. You end up seeing the world differently. So that really is how you impact on a societal level.

Jeffrey Besecker: So circling back to early in our conversation, you mentioned that idea of when we're learning social, emotional learning as a child in those environments, that model of meeting those core demands of person. You know, I have to be acknowledged. I have to be seen. I need to be loved and nurtured. I need to be protected. Looking at and relating to where we start to form some of those identity concepts in ego development. So often that idea of the psyche and ego themselves can become inundated with a lack of understanding education and awareness that's how i'm going to earmark them today inundated with a lack of understanding education and awareness it's a model we've played with throughout history up until about the last 100 years psychology has really started to dig in there you know there are various other fields of science looking at neuroscience in the concept of self and the way we form those identities. Going back to ego development again, looking at that itself, the process, the system of how we create that narrative or story has to start back there in childhood and we have to evolve and adapt what that concept becomes in order to transcend the limiting aspect of it. So often in those early stages, we get caught in only addressing those core survival needs because we are so personalized with it, because we are so ingrained with the process that we can't step back from that model and see a bigger story, a picture.

Alexandra Miles: My thoughts around all that. And this is something that I don't have the answers to. And I'm sure there has been there has been some research done in this on this topic. But I'd be curious to know more.

Jeffrey Besecker: That's the curious part. There is such a wealth of information on it, but why socially we resist it becomes another curious aspect to dig apart why that stigma prevails.

Alexandra Miles: Yeah, well, and so my thoughts around it and my questions are, if you do not get those biological needs as a child, we know at this point that if you don't, you know, there's a lot that can develop in the area of mental health struggle as you get older, when you don't get attention, when you don't get validation, love, you know, when you don't get those innate needs during that ego development phase. However, is there a way to get that once you've reached adulthood? Is there a way to kind of heal and fill in that void to a point where you are quote unquote recovered or quote unquote at the point where you are no longer kind of needing that? Is it something that needs to be constantly worked on for the rest of your life or constantly, I guess, filled through methods that say it's therapy, say it's, you know, different practices? And then the further question is, how do you prevent perpetuating your hurt towards your children, towards that next generation? Because if you didn't get what you needed, you might still be vying for those biological needs. Well, really, you have a child that you should be giving back to instead of needing that from or needing from society. So I think, again, this systemic, you know, it's it's a perpetuating issue. And I think that's the cycle. often, but is it possible to break that?

Jeffrey Besecker: Is it possible then becomes a matter of mindset. Yes, by most regards, it is possible. And there again, we go back to that idea that it's infinitely complex. I like to go back to this idea that no matter what phase of life we're in, if we're a young child, if we're an adult, we're constantly walking each other home, so to speak. You know, we're kind of guiding and nurturing each other as a shared entity in the shared community. That becomes a very kind of complex to nuance overview that can be compounded and looked at from a number of different angles. But going back to that idea of personalization and building that identity, going back to that idea of starting off in what's known as a pre-conventional phase, which means we're just living in the phases of survival beyond what's conventional then to exist beyond that. Going back, these are my basic default needs, my basic what I need to feel like I'm thriving and existing as a human. You know, existing itself can be triggering to just say existing because so often we're culturally stigmatized to see that through different lenses and different perspectives. As we move into this growth mindset culture now of evolution and growth, Sometimes that inadvertently and subconsciously, unconsciously can become stigmatized of just existing somehow now has its own connotation. So I'm going to leave that open and not pick that apart too much today, but just looking at what happens when we start to build those identities and stories relates back to that early childhood. What messages are we getting in the home? What messages or perceptions subconsciously and unconsciously get built? You know, that ability to talk and communicate if you have an adult, caregiver, parent, beyond just your parental model, who reinforces those ideas that it's not safe to communicate. It's not done here. That's not accepted. sets a lot of that ground. You know, we're constantly going through that socially and culturally, even as we grow as adults, as we're all in that kind of quote unquote healing trauma journey of finding that awareness.

Alexandra Miles: Yeah, I think following that kind of ego development phase then becomes the issue of comparison. that's a whole other can of worms that we can go down. But as humans, we are wired to compare. You see it on a societal level. You see it on an individual level. On a societal level, you look at concepts like the origin of our discontent. Speaking about the caste system, speaking about slavery, the Holocaust, from a societal level where we decide that a different group is better or worse based on something entirely out of their control because we're constantly comparing. And then you get into that same comparison culture as an individual with other individuals. We're constantly looking at each other for what are we supposed to do? What is normal, quote unquote, how do I fit in? How do I belong? And that can be extremely detrimental to the psyche as well.

Jeffrey Besecker: There's such nuance there again, looking at cultural conditioning, cultural programming. We have to build a model where we can coexist in a beneficial and healthy manner. We have to have beneficial, healthy reframing of comparison. Feedback being the big thing, you know, when we're in that emotionally defensive model or that traumatized or emotionally dysregulated model. so often that does carry some adverse connotations, some unhealthy maladaptive connotations. Just that idea of adaptive maladaptive can become socially stigmatized and triggered if there's an association built to it, if there's an identification, if it's personalized rather than depersonalized, if you can't step back and say, it's just identifying a situation. Yes. Going back to that idea of comparison, we have to watch our interactions in the regard that not as much now, but when we go back to our early social survivalism, we have to watch when person X goes over there and eats a berry and there was a bad outcome. That was an adverse outcome. It was unhealthy or maladaptive. We have to be able to take that feedback and recognize that even fear itself has an intrinsic value. Absolutely. The fear of stepping in front of a bus is not something we necessarily want to get rid of or overcome. We just have to adapt a better model of relating not only to fear, but then all of those other emotions are based and rooted in how we're relating to them and how we relate those to all of our other experiences, to other people.

Alexandra Miles: Yeah. And I really think it comes back again to this concept of radical acceptance. When we can really remember to stay in tune with what we're experiencing, when we can actually start acknowledging, then you can decide, is this behooving me or is this not? You know, this fear-based, trauma-based reaction, thank you brain for trying to protect me, but in this case, it is not a protection, it's hurting. So what do I do to let that go? Whereas then another case and making this kind of an instantaneous, you know, for a long time, it's going to take maybe a minute to to get curious about that, to go through those questions. But over time, I think the hope is that that becomes so instantaneous that when you're about to react to something, you can actually train your body to take that breath and acknowledge and know, OK, it is not needed. This, you know, this trauma response, this this is not needed in this moment, but hold on to it in the cases of stepping in front of the train or the bus, whatever it is.

Jeffrey Besecker: interesting to look at as we travel through that healing journey. We can watch research data now where that window of tolerance starts to broaden up where we aren't as emotionally activated. As we develop those core competency skills, as we develop that emotional intelligence, it's not all about just focusing on the emotion. If we want to enhance that skill, we also enhance how we think and form reasoning. There's a correlation there. So you can look at the fact that, well, I'm in one model of thinking in rumination in circular thinking where I'm just looking at the same outcomes and if those outcomes are hyper-focused, my attention is on the adverse non-beneficial, what we call negative part, which itself is very subjective, that's where we tend to go to. And as we wire that model neurally, it imprints into our neural system, it imprints into our brain, it imprints throughout our embodied responses. Being able to expand that window of tolerance, whether it's tolerating the emotions of others, accepting them, being one model of toleration. You know, we have to also be aware then of those healthy boundaries again, that I'm not tolerating something that's adverse or unhealthy for me. Being able to shift those perspectives and see things from different angles.

Alexandra Miles: Yeah, 100%. And I think you said this concept before, and this is kind of a complicated concept, but the just sit with it concept of sitting with certain emotions, but also then to play devil's advocate, knowing where those boundaries are or the way that others are treating you or responding to you that you do not need to sit with. I mean, there's so much to play devil's advocate with. And that's why it's so wonderfully complicated. You know, it's, um, we're a complex, beautiful brain. That is one of our greatest assets. And, um, and I think our biggest curse as well is that there is so much complexity to the brain that lends itself to both joy and struggle and connection and struggle.

Jeffrey Besecker: Something comes to the forefront for me as we look at that idea of playing devil's advocate. We look at social emotional learning there. What subconscious connotations we can load sometimes with just that idea of playing devil's advocate. What does that socially stimulate within us and where our own personal perspective could go with that? Sometimes subconsciously, does that reinforce a belief that there's that correlation of negative implication that comes in? It's reinforced the devil's advocate. You know, even then we have a lot of nuanced ways where we kind of preload things, where it can perpetuate and motivate those adverse stigmas and that adverse cultural identification with something. And it becomes so programmed and ingrained in us that we're just not aware in that regard, then being mindful of where the social conditioning connects and starts to form some of those relationships. You know, do we start new social conditioning and we shift that narrative or shift the way we frame that?

Alexandra Miles: Yeah, I think the tough thing, I think the tough thing about all of that, it's one thing to be mindful. It's one thing to acknowledge. Change has to be active and not passive. So I think the tough thing is you really do have to decide whether it's internally or to change the stigma and societal norms of our society, other groups, whatever it is. In order to change the way the brain works or those neurological pathways form, in order to change even on a societal standpoint, it needs to be active and not passive. And I think that's what makes it so scary is it has to be a decision. It can't just be a, well, this is going to happen over time. It won't. It's a very active process. And I think that's what makes it so daunting as well to challenge those mental health struggles because you do have to actively practice. You do sometimes have to ask for the help of a talk therapist or somebody to help you actively make those changes.

Jeffrey Besecker: Now, in that regard, no matter what cultural change, what personal change we're even looking at, it all becomes endemic or dependent on those interactions, on that nuance of where you're focusing the attention.

Alexandra Miles: Yeah. And we can only focus our attention on so much. And then again, it comes back to setting those boundaries of self. We can only take on so much and it becomes very overwhelming. And so how do you protect also yourself from being overwhelmed of taking on all of these roles, issues? How do you protect your own mental health, you know, in that space?

Jeffrey Besecker: There again, we've got a whole system of nuance we can pick apart there. First and foremost, I like going back to that idea of the psyche and ego. Psyche is basically that overall story of narrative that we tell about this embodied human being that itself gives its own identity there to the process that is not inherently dependent on the embodied human being to begin with. We can see things from an external distance source that's not pushing us out in an unhealthy way, but in a healthy way. We're able to see things and witness them. Radical acceptance requires, to a certain degree, grace and somewhat of a distance perspective.

Alexandra Miles: Yeah, all of this. It makes me think as well the importance of community, but also I'll label it as the extension of ego, the extension of self. And I think you see a true extension of self in three ways, I think. And I think it's family. I should say parents, children, partner, your community. And I think there's something so important about finding that. And this this will be controversial. Some people do not feel that those pieces need to be there. But I think when I look at others, that's the, those are the three circumstances that I really see the ego and the concept of self extending outside of sense of self to the point where you are very much connected and truly, truly caring about each other. It's not that you can't care about a friend. It's not that you can't care about someone else, you know, in your extended family, but it's different. There's something different when it comes to a parent, a child, a partner, where their well-being actually becomes your own. Well, it is your own well-being. And I think that there is something really important for that as well, in terms of how an individual sees themselves and their place of acceptance in this world. Having somebody else look out for your well-being too, as you would your own and looking at somebody else's well-being as you would your own.

Jeffrey Besecker: Reciprocity, finding that equality in each other, you know, has to be essential in that element. First and foremost, we're inherently connected as human. lean into unitive ego development where we look at those different phases. It's kind of interesting how we look at that childlike phase as being inherently curious and open and then somehow we start to adopt some of that conditioning that moves beyond that. There's almost an inverse there where we start out with that radical acceptance. Right. Yes, exactly. Until we start to have some of those influences and conditioning that shifts that perspective where our behaviors start to get pointed out by others. And then we become mindfully aware of how am I being seen? How am I being evaluated? What judgments and discernments are coming at it? What perceptions am I forming that based on my limited range of experience more than anything?

Alexandra Miles: Yeah, you have to look at that and and acknowledge that there is something then biologically that you need when you start to change as a child. And biologically, it is I am wired for survival. What do I need to survive? I need to compare because I need to protect myself. because I need to know what is right and wrong in terms of safety, because I need to know survival of the fittest, what is not working for someone else that I have to avoid because I need to survive and I need to self-preserve. And I am no longer a child, so I am no longer, biologically, I'm no longer necessarily being protected. So now I have to protect myself. But then I think it's a matter of setting those boundaries and really, again, going back to what protection is actually necessary and needed, and what has been triggered that is not going to behoove me, that is not needed.

Jeffrey Besecker: I think it's interesting to look at from the aspect of social emotional learning. Are we imprinting with our children early as parents? You know, do we encourage not only that sense of autonomy, but also a healthy sense of connectedness that it's all right to exist in those environments? You know, it's all right to be vulnerable, being a big one. Yeah. There's such a double-edged sword there a lot of times that automatically becomes binary because by our nature we have some co-reliance on each other, yet we mix these messages so often of hyper-independence, forming your own individuality. There's a lot of different struggles we can concoct and create around it. And I say concoct because it's basically this kind of weird alchemy sometimes of just mix and match. That's where I like to go and challenge that idea sometimes we have about the very theory and concept of authenticity. Because so often we are, based on the different triggers, the different stimuluses and responses, just picking a grab bag of apples, cherries, strawberries, like a fruit, This fruit is what I'm going to pick now, and then I'm going to pick this fruit over here, and those are the fruits we carry through life. What makes that any more authentic sometimes than the other option becomes very subjective and sometimes without being stigmatizing in how I present it, hopefully, somewhat convoluted, you know? So there again, it's more that act of personalization, what we choose to identify with, And are we able to loosen our hold and be vulnerable even with that?

Alexandra Miles: Yeah. Oh, and that's a whole other rabbit hole too of identity and building identity. But the one thing I will say, touching on that piece of vulnerability and teaching, I think you mentioned at the beginning, teaching our children that it's okay to be vulnerable. I think again, if you look at children developing and, um, and really developing under the premise of, I need to be safe, I need to protect myself. Well, if we are not being vulnerable around our children, that's the phase where we're quite literally telling our children, you're watching me, I see your eyes on me, I see that you are learning from me, and I'm telling you vulnerability is not safe because I'm hiding my vulnerability. Now, I think the way to reverse that again is be vulnerable and help your children realize there is a way to safely be vulnerable. But in order to do that, you have to believe that yourself. You have to do that yourself. And I think leading by that example can help a child see that vulnerability is okay. Here's how to safely do it. Here's how to safely use the helpful resources when you're feeling a certain way. It doesn't have to be unsafe to be vulnerable. Just know how to do so and how to lean on help.

Jeffrey Besecker: And I think it's an interesting point now where we can reinforce the idea that as parents, we can culturally tend, and this is very broad, we can culturally tend to reinforce that responsibility for an individual rather than creating that shared space of responsibility. This is how I see it. How should we respond? You know, from a very early age, I think kids need to be modeled with that act of responsibility and volition. within, you know, healthy boundaries, healthy reason. You can't let the kid, I'm just going to let him walk over to that outlet and jam the fork in there. Hopefully he doesn't perish and hopefully he learns his lesson. You know, we have to build those healthy structures. There again, healthy conditioning comes in. My experience has to speak to your experience. But if I'm not building a safe, secure, socially acceptable, comforting model, and I'm going to say comforting because so often we hyper focus on the discomfort part. If we're not building an element where comfort is acceptable, there's going to be a binary stigma toward that. You have to build that comfort with being able to say, I can take feedback without it being discomforting. And if it is discomforting, how do we manage that in a more adaptive, healthy manner?

Alexandra Miles: Yeah. And I think to that point as well, really helping our children to identify that instead of labeling, you're returning to the black and white concept instead of labeling a feeling is good or bad. Can it be a feeling now? Do we want to be experiencing that feeling? Do we not want to be experiencing that feeling? And then, you know, go into it, go into it in depth, but not making it so black and white as this is a good feeling. This is a bad feeling. No, this is just somewhere on the spectrum. You know, this is this is a feeling. And how do you feel about that?

Jeffrey Besecker: Now, if I can share with you, here's a model we often share if you're open to hear.

Alexandra Miles: Yeah, absolutely.

Jeffrey Besecker: And I feel that's one area where I'm working myself to grow past some of these traumas is sometimes we are so quick to offer our feedback and opinion that we haven't cultured and primed each other to be ready to understand that that element of trust is there. So sometimes that just requires you asking, do you feel good about this? Do you feel open to it? So if you're open to sharing that, I'd love to share that with you. To you sharing, you mean that? An idea on that. Yeah. I'm trying to reinforce that idea that we have to also do that with our kids. If we don't invite them into that equation, there's an automatic resistance. So sharing this idea of moving from the stigmatizing labels of the binary, good and bad automatically are very binary. There's an EOR equation. We're not considering greater context. We overgeneralize. More often than not, we go to an automatic default outcome. So to move past that, what we've started doing as a program is looking at rather than saying good and bad, we acknowledge the emotion for the result. This is a discomforting emotion. This is recalcitrant, meaning that it causes long term discomfort. Moving out of some of that binary understanding of it and understanding the felt response. Why first am I having a reaction to this emotion? Well, if it is uncomfortable, can we move to a more comfortable or just acknowledging that it's uncomfortable and let go of some of that subjective label rather than saying anger inherently is programmed to mean a bad response. We do know that sometimes anger leads to rage. Sometimes anger leads to other secondary emotions, shame and guilt. Some of the underlying ones we do to ourselves. that we've automatically taken that idea of a negative relationship to anger. And what do we do? We store that away and we start to withdraw from it. We start to suppress it. We start to restrict from and contract. We resist it. And what do we do then? We move into some of those cycles, sometimes of guilt and shame. Now I feel bad about having it, which again is another conditioned response.

Alexandra Miles: Yeah. And I think also maybe seeing, maybe starting to reframe, um, I love that concept and that model too, and maybe starting to reframe some of the, the labeling of bad when it comes to emotions like anger, not that it should be bad or good, but maybe even reframing as what a great thing that I felt that spurt of anger, because that was telling my mind that there is something to respond to here. There's something to listen to here. There's something to address here. But now I have a choice how I address it and where I take that. And do I let it linger or do I let that feeling that I just felt, do I let that just inform my brain, inform my body that there's something to acknowledge here. And, um, and if I think if we look at it as more of a, this was an opportunity to acknowledge something instead of, so maybe it's not good or bad. It's just an opportunity. It's something that came up.

Jeffrey Besecker: I love where you took that naturally. And I feel that's such a good lesson to first and foremost, not only remind me of how we shift those perspectives, but also create that impact where we can look at how we form and adapt those differences in view. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. You know, and I know that's not always a vulnerable space to be in.

Alexandra Miles: Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. No, thank you for sharing that model, too, and that and that concept. Thank you for this entire conversation. This is But because it's an amazing conversation that really could go on, I think the wonderful thing is it's not black and white. There is no answer per se. The question is the answer. You know, we have to just keep, I think, questioning and keep acknowledging, keep questioning, keep being honest with ourselves and authentic and not afraid of sitting in or feeling that discomfort. It's just an opportunity to question.

Jeffrey Besecker: I think that's such a great note to end on today, Alexandra. Acknowledging that we're not going to create that change overnight and we have to be vulnerable to it. That's what my takeaway from it is today. So thank you for sharing that very salient reminder and that very encouraging reminder to just simply question and break it down into those micro pieces. Absolutely. Thank you truly for sharing. Where can our listeners reach out to you to learn more about Project Blackbird and your very inspirational efforts to shift our view on mental health?

Alexandra Miles: Well, I welcome them to reach out directly to me as well. I do have my email listed on the website. I would love to chat individually, but for the organization in general, our website is www.projectblackbirdinc.org. Our social media, Instagram, we can be found at Project Blackbird Film. And there's some ways to contact me as well through there. But I would very much love to go in depth and chat about this further. I mean, this is it's a really important topic. I encourage anybody to follow what the organization is doing as well in terms of encouraging vulnerability and safety around discussing these mental health topics. That's what we do. We go and we try to help the youth feel safer and try to help different marginalized communities feel safer having this vulnerable conversation, letting everyone know that it's okay to not be okay, to provide those first steps of recovery, to provide five months of paid therapy. Because as we mentioned earlier, sometimes you don't want that help in the beginning, any barrier. Your mind is at a different place where it might still think it's protecting, it might be afraid to jump into those first steps. So we try to make it safer. So I encourage anyone to help spread this message, help be the instigator yourself to change the stigma and start being vulnerable.

Jeffrey Besecker: You are such a beautiful, encouraging and inspiring human beings. So thank you. Thank you for sharing that mission and sharing Vulnerable, your story. Namaste, the light me acknowledges the light in you. Keep doing what you are doing. The world so needs your light.

Alexandra Miles: Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for shining your light on myself, on the listeners, on the world. Thank you for engaging in brilliant conversation with myself and other guests that you have. You are a light yourself. I very much appreciate you.

Jeffrey Besecker: Thank you for that feedback. I'd love to have you back again soon. Thank you, Jeffrey. Take care. This episode of The Light Inside, we unraveled the pervasive impact of social stigmas on mental health, exploring how these stigmas can both guide and constrain our collective behaviors and beliefs. To change cultural and social stigmas surrounding mental health, actionable steps include promoting open conversations, educating diverse communities, and providing comprehensive support systems. In doing so, we promote the adaptation of a kinder, caring, and more loving environment that leads to empathetic and understanding concern for the emotional, mental, physiological, and psychological health of all. If you found valued meaning in this episode, please share it with a friend or loved one, especially if they are seeking loving support as they navigate the often-challenging journey towards optimal emotional and mental health. We're grateful for Alexandra's integral message and thoughtful wisdom when addressing the complex and nuanced factors that guide our mental health care. And as always, we're grateful for you, our valued listening community of curious academics and change-leading professionals. This has been The Light Inside. I'm Jeffrey Biesecker. you