Humor’s Bad Reputation: The Role Comedy Plays Both in Social Bonding and Emotional Coping with Alfie Noakes

Humor’s Bad Reputation- The Role Comedy Plays Both in Social Bonding and Emotional Coping with Alfie Noakes

00:00 Jeffrey Besecker This is The Light Inside. I'm Jeffrey Besecker. Humor. At times it's a bomb for the soul. Serving as a life raft in difficult situations or lightening the load during troubled times. Or it could just be a way to procrastinate from doing actual work. Humor is like seasoning for the soul. It's so powerful that even a bad joke can make us smile. Just like a pinch of salt in a lobotomy can turn your mom's cooking into a gourmet meal. Life without humor is like a turd sandwich without the funny bone. It's just a little doll that lacks that extra zing. A spark that creates mutual bonds and breaks down barriers. Yet, at times, there's also a darker shade to humor.

Those that create derision and contempt. And a subtle jab becomes an unkind jib filled with misintent. Today we look at humor, how it binds us together and at times pulls us miles apart. We discuss the role comedy plays both in social bonding and emotional coping with stand-up comedian and comedy coach Alfie Noakes when we return to the Light Inside.

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Philosophers are concerned with what is important in life, so two things are surprising about what they have to say about humor. The first is how little they've actually said. So, rather than wrestle with whether or not the cat got their ton, let's just assume they were caught in a heated debate with their brains about whether to say something sarcastic or not. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy describes the cause of humorous laughter as two or more inconsistent, unsuitable, or incongruous parts or circumstances considered as united in one and the same assemblage. What the holy mother of actual! Also surprising is how negatively philosophers have rated humor in the past.

In ancient Greece until the 20th century, the vast majority of philosophical comments on laughter and humor focused on scornful or mocking laughter, or on laughter that overpowers rather than on comedy, wit, or the precisely placed punchline of a good joke. Plato, the most influential critic of laughter, treated it as an emotion that overrides rational self-control. Yet, you know what they say, studying philosophy is like watching a snail marathon. Slow and full of twists, but in the end, you're left wondering why you even bothered to spectate.

Nevertheless, humor is essential throughout life, serving as a source of stress relief, a relationship enhancer, and a tool for creating resilience. Not to mention, a joke at the expense of a foul weather friend even helps to bring us closer together as humanity. Not that all foul-weather friends are bad people. Sometimes a little compassion and understanding can go a long way. But if you find that a friendship is hurting more than helping, you might want to check that friendship.

Yet another of Plato's objections to laughter is that it is malicious. Taken generally, he says, the ridiculousness is a certain kind of evil, specifically a vice. Yet we all have that one friend, the one that's only redeeming quality, is that indecisively wicked sense of humor they use to assail an otherwise miserable outlook on life. Alvi, I'm excited to discuss with you today how humor can be utilized as both a healthy emotional coping mechanism and how it can, at times, become a defensive mechanism of emotional avoidance. So with that in mind, let's start our discussion from the point of how we see humor as a healthy social lubricant that fosters healthy bonding and social interaction.

Can you briefly explain how humor plays a pivotal role in creating social acceptance while allowing individuals to connect and bond with others?

04:53 Alfie Noakes Certainly.

04:54 Alfie Noakes Good to be speaking with you. Thank you for having me on the show. Humour obviously can operate on a number of levels. It can be just between a couple of people. I come from the stand-up comedy universe, so typically it's one person speaking to a crowd. But on both levels, if somebody is funny and they can elicit a laugh, from the person in front of them, whether it's a friend, colleague, whoever it might be, or a crowd of people, that creates some kind of bond. Typical nature of somebody who's made to laugh by another person is they're more inclined to like them. So it's a bond-filling exercise. Bond-generating exercise would be better said. And equally, it can also be used as a measure for people to share a certain type of joke or a sense of humor. Certainly, I think there's an understanding of gallows humor, a darker humor that might be shared amongst, for example, soldiers in a war zone. I've got a couple of friends who are firefighters and they've got a very gallows dark humor, which I have no problem with, but I've seen it ruffle some feathers when they're speaking in dark company. But I'm highly aware that I already knew this but I've spoken to them at length and they've explained to me you know when you are perhaps taking a dead body from a car crash an incredibly harsh and difficult situation to be able to find some humor and levity in the situation which would be just inappropriate in other circumstances is a way of them coping. So it can be social cohesion, it can be social glue, it could be social lubricants, it can also be a way of managing things in hard times one-on-one or one to a group.

06:16 Jeffrey Besecker You mentioned in that regard how that humor acts as that bond that helps ease tension in humor. In what ways, then, does humor act as a powerful tool for easing social tension and breaking the ice in various social situations?

06:32 Alfie Noakes Well, it can work both ways, actually. So very often the nature of a joke is to misdirect an audience. So they believe they're going over here to the left, for example, and then nonetheless, the audience find themselves Surprised. Surprise is a fundamental of most comedy. And then the audience find themselves over here to the right, for example. Yet there is a logic that prevails. They, in reflection, once they hear the punchline, can recognize how they thought they were going here and they end up over here. Much as with filmmakers, you know, they will surprise their audiences, create a hook and hold their attention to a satisfying climax, whether it's a scene or the whole movie or the whole comedy set, however it might happen to be. Well, I think in common day-to-day life, people very commonly laugh when there's something funny that hasn't actually happened. It's a way of almost punctuating a statement or a comment or a sentence to demonstrate that we're not being difficult. It's a request as opposed to a demand, for example. It's a way of alleviating a moment of tension. It could be, for example, there's a group talking and there's an awkward lull. And within that, the likelihood that somebody's going to chuckle somewhat, it won't be a belly laugh by any stretch, and that just lightens the mood somewhat before the conversation goes on further. So that's a day-to-day use of laughter as kind of social lubricant. In the world of comedy, of stand-up comedy, very often it's a case of bringing people together on a theme because comedy is very much predicated on truth. If somebody tells a joke and it doesn't have that ring of truth, it can be a weird angle in on the subject, whatever that subject may be, but it does have to have that ring of truth. If it's insincere, it won't work as a joke at all. So if a comedian is in front of an audience and they're succeeding in their set, there should be some sense of gathering the audience into a way of thinking or at least getting them to follow the comedian's way of thinking. And the classic tool for comedians, of course, is to raise tension. And then they release the tension by delivering the punchline, and the laughter is the very act of releasing that tension as a group. It can, of course, happen one-on-one as well. So these are just a couple of examples of how laughter can be used as social lubricant day by day, or it can be used as the art form that is standard comedy.

08:45 Jeffrey Besecker And in that regard, we can, again, without stepping too far into my own ego, reflect on how today I'm acknowledging that vulnerability where I'm a little off from my perspective. I'm not finding my mark like I usually do. And I'm a little uncomfortable with that. I'm feeling a little vulnerable and uncomfortable. This is just how we are as people, isn't it? Accepting that moment authentically, let's lean in and just continue to move forward. So from that perspective, how does humor function as an emotional coping mechanism at times? And what are some of the common scenarios where people turn to humor during emotional challenges, much like I just have?

09:23 Alfie Noakes So humour is an emotional coping mechanism. I think, again, it would depend on the person and the situation. But in a dark period of one's life and everything feels like it's getting too much, for want of a better expression, finding some levity in the situation and having a release of laughter is almost often what's most needed. I'm speaking to you from England. There's that classic notion of, no matter how bad it gets, have a cup of tea and it will all be better. But no matter how bad it gets, if one can have something of a laugh, whether it's, you know, with a familiar person and, you know, you're crying on each of the shoulders, but a little bit of levity with a laugh that can really help. It's a bond amongst people, but it's a shared moment amongst people. And then again, it can be a stand-up comedian on stage addressing the issues of the day. Comedians, of course, are a different type of philosopher. And, you know, I don't want to sound too grand about it, but the very best comedians really are the George Collins, the Bill Hickses. These guys are definitely philosophers of sorts. And so they can make their often hard to swallow ideas so much more palatable by the spoonful of sugar being the laughter, the jokes that helps the ideas go through. So it's a communication tool as much as anything, but also the experience of laughter is a bonding experience. There's something that happens if one's watching stand-up comedy recorded on a screen, whether that's a Netflix special or somebody's recorded their set. You lose, in my experience, about 70% of the effectiveness of the comedy once it's recorded through the screen, as opposed to the energy that exists there in a stand-up comedy club. When you're in the room and you're hearing the laughter echo all around you in real life. Almost the vibrations of the other people laughing, going through the chair you're sitting in, that builds up a vibe, a genuine vibe and energy that is lost on a recorded format. And people recognize that from day by day. It's a way of bonding with one another. It's a way of alleviating one another's problems. It's a way of arguably manipulating people to get them to like us. And manipulation isn't always a bad thing. It can just be a way of moving ourselves forward in life. And some people are very good at using the tools of being comedic. Very often that has some kind of overlap with being charming. And I would argue most, not all, but many, many of the finest stand-up comedy comedians of all time were charming people. They almost go hand in hand.

11:40 Jeffrey Besecker How do you feel reading the context or reading the room feeds into how effectively we connect on that comedic level?

11:49 Alfie Noakes So if one's looking at quote unquote reading the room as a standard comedian, when you look out across the audience, you might have a sense of a certain demographic there. So if you're looking at just arbitrarily, you have a large number of pensioners in the room. They may or may not be less fond of foul language or sexual topics, for example. the fact is you're not likely to see a large amount of pensioners, certainly at a majority in a comedy room. The other way of reading the room, other than who you see in front of you, is the mood of the room, the vibe of the room. So again, very much from a stand-up comedy point of view, if a comedian has been on before, I'm going to go up and perform, or be on stage, and they've really hurt the room, they've brought down the energy, they've told jokes that didn't fly, they've talked about particularly offensive or disgusting subjects which has offended and wound up the crowd that can make the mood the vibe of the room fall down and everybody can feel it you know there's an awkwardness if somebody tells a joke and it doesn't fly the audience feel it and the act feels it which is why almost every comedian will strive to leave the stage with a big laugh you know they save one of their very best jokes for last because to leave the stage that's my time, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. And they walk off to no laughter, to no applause. That's a very stinging and embarrassing moment. And of course, embarrassment is something most of us go to great lengths to avoid. And the average standard comedian is, you know, they're very brave and bold people. Because the very act of going up on stage is an act of vulnerability in the first place. You know, they're the only one facing that way in the room, they're under a spotlight. Everybody knows they're there with the specific challenge of trying to make them laugh. And if they don't succeed, It can sting. In open mic comedy, the early days, that's going to happen. That's where you learn your skill set and you build up your armor. But once you get to the paid and the professional level, the expectation is that it should succeed every time. And most often they do. It's a really high hit rate. But even professional comedians can fail sometimes just the vibe wasn't there. Maybe something's happening in their personal life. Maybe there's a terrible vibe in the room. That's highly unlikely, but it can happen. But the very act of being a comedian is an act of vulnerability. You're putting your ego out there to some extent, and it's a very clear feedback loop being a stand-up comedian. Either they laugh or they don't. It really is crystal clear. Sometimes it's not as big a laugh as we would like, and sometimes it's a very heartening, warming response when we get rolling laughter. But every joke is a potential failure or a potential success, and there's a whole flow of them every time we perform.

14:20 Jeffrey Besecker We've all told that joke that bombs about life. As a comedian, that stage very literally is highlighted. You're very literally in the spotlight going through life when we meet those moments, when we bomb relating from that perspective of a seasoned comedian. How do you find that common ground to kind of gather yourself and soldier on bridge that gap where there might be that disconnect from your audience or that connection with those you're interacting with? Are there certain tips you can offer on how we can recover and gain that common ground again?

14:56 Alfie Noakes Yeah, I mean, if a comedian bomb was on stage, they've got a limited number of options. One is just to persevere and press on. You know, it's bad enough to bomb in the first place, but if you bomb and then don't even do your time, then there's a professional consideration. But as far as actually handling that scenario, there's a limited number of ways. One is you can just plow on with the material you had planned and hope it picks up or just accept it's not going to get any better, but you're going to do your time. Equally though, one can choose to pivot and that could be to turn to the crowd. I've seen a particularly brilliant comedian here in London. He was five minutes into his brilliant 20 minute set, which I've seen before. I know it works, but for some reason this night it wasn't gelling. So five minutes into it, he just literally turned to a lady in the front row and went, what would you like to speak about? He goes, let's be clear, we all know here, and that was a very smart move on his point. Canadians should be something of truth tellers. And he acknowledged, it's not working. You know it, and I know it. And he offered himself up to her in an act of extreme vulnerability. What would you like to speak about? With everybody inherently understanding that whatever she answered, he was probably gonna have to speak about that. and be funny on the fly, which has just raised the stakes even more so. He's no longer just sticking with his tried and tested material, which is effectively a script, a monologue. Now he's going to have to somewhat improvise. And by doing that, it won over the audience. It almost reset the audience. Whatever he'd done before was forgiven. They realized the stakes were increased. They saw him as more of a human being than just a professional comedian. As it was, the lady gave him a topic which was actually fertile for comedic opportunities and he took it in a new direction and he was able to save the set by effectively humanizing riffing and improvising.

16:39 Jeffrey Besecker Looking at that idea of ego, you mentioned how our ego sometimes steps into that equation. From a psychological perspective, we often use that ego to filter and buffer what we're doing with that experience, the information that comes in, how we process those emotional interactions. Can you share from your perspective how we might use humor sometimes to mask our deeper insecurities, fears, and anxieties?

17:09 Alfie Noakes Yes, certainly. I mean, there are stereotypes about standard comedians that I'm not necessarily convinced are true. For example, they were necessarily, maybe always bullied at school, or maybe they have a mummy or a daddy issue. I've been trying to pay heed to that for years. I don't think it's necessarily very true. I've seen literally thousands of comedians up close and personal have drinks with them at the bar afterwards. I don't see that as a common theme. What I do see, though, is there is a certain ego-led character in most people who want to perform a comedy, which is no bad thing. It's common in artists of all stripes, I believe, because fundamentally, any artist is going to create whatever their artist, music, an actor in a drama, a play, an actual artist, a painter, a sculptor, whatever it might happen to be, in this case, a comedian, and they're going to generate, create something from their own mind that they are proud of, or they are happy enough at least to put out into the public domain, and then say, hey guys, come and have a look at this. What do you think? Do you like it enough that you might pay for this at one point? Equally, there are going to be critics and reviewers in most areas, and you can also see the faces of your audience, whether they're regarding your painting or whether they're laughing at your jokes or not laughing at your jokes, as it might happen to be. The feedback loop of people laughing is highly satisfying. I've often likened it to a rock star type feeling of success that most people don't have the opportunity of having when the crowd are roaring, whooping, and cheering and laughing for you. Obviously, the opposite of that is not laughing, not having the joke work, and that can sting and hurt. And the comedians, the artists in general, are putting themselves forward in a much more public domain than the average person, because they're putting up that flag and going, I've made something, come and have a look, now tell me what you think. And very few people, very few artists are invulnerable to a lack of approval. as it happens to be. What's strong for them, though, is the ability to build up an armour. New material as a comedian is very rarely good, or at least very rarely good enough. It is a process of development, you know, the average comedian, world-class comedian who's, you know, good enough to get a special on Netflix, for example, being a modern standard. It typically takes them two years to do that, and this is their full-time job, and they can jump in at any comedy club they like, by and large, because they're famous and they're known. And it takes them two years to generate an hour. So the lower levels of comedy, they've probably got a day job. They can't do this 24-7. They can't just jump in on a gig anytime they like. Yet they're still willing to put in the time and the effort. And with that brings a significant amount of self-esteem. They're willing to take the chance, put in the work, and make a series of progressive steps to get better and better. So their ego gets hit hard and then it gets a big boost because the lock comes and then it'll be hit hard and it's a very rocky roller coaster type experience for them. But their ego tends to become managed rather well after a period of time because they become wise to the fact that this needs to be managed. This is indeed part of the process. and by managing this they become superior artists after time.

20:12 Jeffrey Besecker Do you feel from that perspective that as a general population we sometimes neglect to make that realization that comedians are producing are meant to be a performative art yet as human beings those same parameters may not apply to our general lives?

20:32 Alfie Noakes Yeah, there's a gulf divide between the comedy that's delivered from stage and the comedy that's delivered day by day. It's a very particular dynamic, as I mentioned earlier. They're on a stage facing this direction alone, amplified under a spotlight, and the audience have an expectation of them. That's not the same, for example, as starting a new job and suddenly being surrounded by 10 new colleagues And of course, you would like to get along with them. You want to make a good impression. And you're going to use all of the social tips and tricks that you have to get along with people. Very often, it is telling a joke that makes them laugh and they're like, have you seen the new guy in accounts? He's quite funny. I like that guy. That helps. But imagine they tell a joke that's off color, off topic. and it doesn't go down well, and that can stay with them as well. That's the opposite of a good first impression. So as much as the skill of being able to make people laugh and recognizing what makes people laugh, there's also a skill set inherent about being tasteful enough by reading the room, by realizing this is going to be appropriate or inappropriate. In a comedy club, by and large, everything's But again, the audience are effectively walking in under a sign that theoretically at least says comedy club. It's going to be jokes guys. But when you're dealing with a new housemate or a friend in the pub, a friend of a friend in the pub who doesn't know you, but you share something in common, once again, you would like to get along with each other, but not knowing too much of who that person is. You might step on a social landmine because they have a certain life experience. Maybe they're going through a divorce and you make some joke about your own divorce. However, one's own divorce is five years earlier. Those wounds have largely healed. It's certainly not such an open wound anymore. But by touching upon that topic, even if you're being self-deprecating, make the joke about yourself, you could of course upset the other person. One can't countenance what's going on in everybody else's life all the time. I think most of us know what the hot button topic issues are. It's arguably wise not to go straight in to try and be funny about any number of religious issues, just as an example, certain political issues. These do not make for decent social lubrication when you don't know who you're speaking with. Which is why a lot of comedy is based on relatively neutral things such as, I think the modern example, would be like internet dating. That's such a common experience for so many people now. That's almost, if not absolutely a hack trope. Back in the 80s, it was airline food was awful. Something most people that could relate to. But it was over-discussed and he became bored and tired after a time. Comedians are very good at spotting things. They're observant people, they're skilled observers. And very often, I think one of the greatest comedians, Billy Connolly, is an absolute master of identifying things that we've almost all experienced and had an emotional reaction to, yet never spoke of. And then he will say to us, Jerry Seinfeld, who I'm not so much a fan of, but he's a master of this as well. where he will identify an absolutely common experience, but we've all experienced it in isolation. And then when he talks about it and sprinkles in some added jokes and evocative imagery to make it genuinely funny, that's something of a bonding experience because somewhere in our subconscious, as the audience, we all go, oh yeah, me too, I thought that was just me, kind of thing. And that is very much a skill of the comedian, is to very often speak into the subconscious of the audience. If they say something, if they tell a joke and it doesn't scan, like that logically doesn't follow through, or part of their set-up as an information, that is factually inaccurate. And the audience know, hang on a minute, the example I would often use is, imagine watching a Star Wars film, and our heroes are in peril, and they suddenly escape by using a time machine. The entire audience are just going to go, hang on a minute, there's no time machine in Star Wars, what are they doing? They've been cheated here. And that's their subconscious. Will somebody break her into their conscious mind and go, no, I'm not here. This is, he's cheating me. He's lying to me. This is just not honest and flowing and accurate. And that's true in day-to-day conversation, but it operates at a much more heightened level when we're trying to make somebody laugh. The comedian is always dealing with the subconscious of the audience. The question is, can they do such a good job that the subconscious voice stays quiet or quiet enough that the conscious mind can just stay focused on the jokes and the show in front of them?

24:38 Jeffrey Besecker That's such a great point to make today. So often when we go into that performative experience, we're co-signing. We're kind of submitting to, okay, we're open to what the comedian is going to present. Yet in our social lives, we don't always have that luxury and we kind of get that broadsided smack when a joke doesn't land right.

24:59 Alfie Noakes I think it's worth pointing out that very often the role of the comedian is to almost say the unsayable. The origin of the jester in the king's court is the jester was the only person who was allowed to mock the king. Back in Roman times, when a victorious general returned and they were celebrating in the city, there would always be a slave behind the victorious general. And his role was literally to say, you're not a god, you're not a god, you're not so special. to try and keep him grounded. We have embodied in most of our historical societies, somebody who will speak truth to power, or at least cut them down to size somewhat. And this is not necessarily the role of every comedian. Some comedians are just going to tell puns and internet dating jokes and fine, no problem at all. But some of them are are here to be our philosophers and truth tellers and to point out issues that we may not see coming or just as likely to look through a different prism or a different lens and go look the common belief is this but actually if you look at it through my eyes it's this. And more than once, I've had my opinion changed by a great comedian because they brought me closer to the truth rather than the kind of the herd thinking. So comedians have a responsibility sometimes to be our truth tellers. Sometimes the audience will whoop and cheer because they're delighted to hear it. They've just had a realization. Or again, they're reminded it's not just me, which is a very important thing. Sometimes they'll boo and they won't be too happy because It's either a message they don't want to take, or it's a message they don't want to take yet. But that is a very important role for comedy. Comedy doesn't age well. This is something to really understand. If you look at much comedy from, for example, let's go back 30, 40, 50 years, from the 90s, 80s, 70s, Richard Pryor is commonly regarded to be one of the greatest comedians of all time. But I think if the average 20-something listened to him today, they wouldn't be laughing much. Arguably, the father of stand-up comedy is Lenny Bruce. His stuff is practically unlistenable. But I fully understand and appreciate his role in comedy at the time and how many doors he kicked through for all of the comedians that followed after him. Comedy is quite a current thing. It doesn't age well because it's very often reflecting mores of the day.

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30:40 Alfie Noakes Sure, absolutely. Yeah.

30:42 Alfie Noakes I mean, there's the comedy that we give and then there's the comedy that we receive. And I would argue that those who we make laugh and those who make us laugh very quickly become friends, you know, in any number of my friend groups over the years, not Not everybody was making me laugh all the time, but the majority of the group there made me laugh. And it could be laughing because they're out having a good time, drinking, and it's a party, and it's a time to laugh. But also, in times that were tough, they would come around and, you know, they wouldn't just kick the door and start telling me jokes. but during the metaphorical arm around my shoulders, there would be jokes told sooner or later to start bringing us back up. We've acknowledged what's happening, we've acknowledged it's not great, let's just lighten things a little bit. It's almost like a change of psychological gear, it strikes to me at times, which takes us out of the morass of bad feelings, lifts us somewhat. Now we can or cannot return to the morass of bad feelings either, But it helps us move more from a more reflective, passive moment, I imagine, to being a little bit, okay, all right, let's kind of move on with things. What am I going to do with this problem? As opposed to dwelling on the problem so much. And look, societal changes happen all the time. Some wild things have happened in your country and mine in just the last few years. I mean, the world alone, the entire world was hit by the pandemic. I mean, we've had some incredible social shifts over the recent period. And it would have been that much harder if it wasn't for comedians helping us navigate that system, whether it was just looked as problems, a one-hour comedy special, or when we could visit a comedy club in that time. It's something of a relief to step back. That comedian may or may not have been talking about the political issues of the day. But either way, it's a relief, just as watching a movie. is a chance just to step out of hard reality and then when the movie ends or the show ends we step back in and our mood is somewhat changed and then we can approach the same situation with a slightly shifted perspective.

32:41 Jeffrey Besecker In that regard, from your personal experience, have you come across situations where humor has been somewhat misaligned or misused in that social context or in that personal context, leading to that unintended consequence of creating that sense of lack of social acceptance or emotional well-being?

33:02 Alfie Noakes Yeah, everybody clearly has. I think more on a one-to-one basis I could address this here, but I think every one of us who's reached adulthood can reflect on some scenario in the schoolyard, the school playground, where somebody has been mocked and bullied and pilloried, and it really hurts. This isn't sticks and stones will break my bones kind of territory. If one person is mocking another person and then the crowd is around the person speaking and laughing, then that one person feels isolated by the entire group, isolated from the entire group, and that's a kind of verbal bullying. Comedy humour is like fire. It can be used for good and it can be used for bad. It can burn us or it can keep us warm, create a rallying point for people to come and sit together where the warmth is, and create some kind of social cohesion that may or may not have been there, and then we can eat healthy food because we can cook that food with the same fire. It can be used for good or for bad, but in my sincere belief, it's predominantly for good. It is allowing people to get along with each other. It sends social cues to each other that we like one another. It's a smile plus, isn't it? A laugh. And also there's a tone of laughter. Just as there's a tone of voice, I could say something and be entirely sincere. But if I affect a sarcastic tone of voice, it has quite the opposite effect. It's literally anti-sincere. And there are sarcastic laughs. There are snarky laughs. There is a language of laughter. A comedian might get the audience to chuckle at a joke and that comedian will be disappointed because they were hoping for a big laugh. Okay, a comedian is always aiming for big rolling laughs. That's the A type of laughter. A chuckle is okay, but that's what, four out of 10 on the laughter scale. So on a day-to-day basis, more often than not, I sincerely believe it's a tool for good. It's a tool for entertaining one another. It's a tool for creating levity. It's a tool for creating bonding. As an entertainment force, it's a tool for addressing social issues. It's a tool for giving us new ways of thinking about things, but that's a very grandiose way of approaching it. Fundamentally, people want to laugh. It is a dynamic experience to laugh. It truly is. It freshens oxygen running through all of the body. It is a bonding experience amongst the crowd that are there. Very often when I say something funny on stage, I'll see audience members laugh, but also I'll see them, if they've arrived, say in a couple, I'll see them turn and look at each other, look at each other in the eyes, and they acknowledge that they both approve of what I'm saying and they're both enjoying what I'm saying. And that's not something they would have done, for example, if they were just watching a movie. I don't note that people particularly reflect upon each other individually. If something's funny in a film, there's that live experience. So certainly comedy can be used to be a line of attack. There is a saying in comedy, which I do believe almost every comedian I've ever seen that's aware of it, that has a skill set to attack, is aware of, and it's this. Comedy is there to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable, by which we mean it's the power of punching up or punching down. We had a scenario here in England, I think well over a decade ago. One of our very best comedians, a brilliant but edgy comedian, made a joke about the child of another celebrity, and that child is well known to be mentally handicapped. And there was quite the furore about it. Now I'm not very precious about jokes, but I thought that one was really out of line. Particularly knowing how talented this comedian is, it will be way more appropriate that he's attacking power structures, such as our Prime Minister, the government, Marvel corporations, a celebrity that's rich and famous and well looked after, but acting inappropriately, whoever that might be. By and large, comedy focuses on punching up. Punching up being the individual having attack at the power structures. punching down is open to interpretation. And this has become a sticky situation in recent years. Because for example, if somebody makes a joke about a woman, okay, that could be seen as punching down because women are seen as a minority. But at the same time, if it was fair to say that same joke about a man, well, we're getting into tricky territory here. Because if somebody is expecting special treatment just because they're a woman, I need to speak very carefully here, of course, the man and the woman could be treated equally. And nobody's being perceived as lower than, that's really what I'm trying to address. I don't believe a woman is lower than, therefore, potentially fair game on a joke. And that could be what we call punching across, where we make a joke at the expense of somebody who is or something that is approximately similar to ourselves. I've used this in one of my courses, I talk about this. As an Englishman, we've got a long-running rivalry with our neighbor France, okay? And now between us, they're divided by the English channel, I stress it's the English channel, okay? But approximately on a societal, demographic, national wealth, so all of these things, we're similar countries. We've got a long-running rivalry, but it's a friendly rivalry that runs over for centuries. If I, as an Englishman, makes a joke about France, that's punching across. That's me having a go at something somewhat equal. So we've covered punching up, we've covered punching across. Punching down, when I mentioned the disabled child earlier, I think that's pretty clear that that's punching down. A disabled child is definitely a weaker individual. When we get to the issue of making a joke about a woman, I don't believe a woman is necessarily a weaker individual by any stretch at all. I think that joke would be punching across. However, sometimes audiences have a problem about understanding where the line between punching across and punching down is. And that is, of course, in the eye of the beholder type situation. And it's a very tricky scenario for comedians to navigate. Some people are very clearly in a weak position and I don't believe comedians should be making jokes about them. Reassuringly, I find that they don't. The line between punching across and punching down can be a little bit tricky to navigate. and sometimes somebody doesn't like it, sometimes they're right to complain about it, sometimes perhaps they're being a little bit precious. It's, as I keep coming to, it's in the eye of the beholder. But fundamentally, comedy can be used, humour can be used as a line of attack. It can also, more commonly in my experience, be used as something that bonds people, that raises the mood in a dark moment, and can speak truth to power in a way that certain other communication techniques cannot.

39:35 Jeffrey Besecker Looking at that idea of speaking truth to power, in your opinion, what strategies can individuals employ to strike that balance of walking that line between punching up, punching down, and finding that common ground that's punching across?

39:52 Alfie Noakes I don't think there's an absolute rule of being able to define punching up, punching down, but something I've certainly taught in my courses and workshops, it's the best barometer I've been able to identify is this. If somebody chooses to be a thing, then it's arguably fair game as a subject of the joke. And it's also probably worth us discussing how sometimes audiences or the internet gets confused between the subject of a joke and a target of the joke, because they are two very different things. They really are. But as far as punching down, punching up, if somebody chooses to be a thing, They're probably fair game. If somebody didn't choose to be a thing, my advice is to leave one alone. I'll give you examples. If somebody chooses to be a vegan, I think it's fair game to make jokes about their lacking in energy, everybody else is applauding you or not, you must be a vegan, whatever it happens to be. If you're making jokes because of the color of somebody's skin, or perhaps their sexuality, I think you're on very thin ice indeed there. And leave well alone, that would feel like something of a more attacking form rather than good natured comedy, such as the joke about the vegan. So that's probably the best barometer I can find. However, I can think of at least one exception that breaks the rule of what I've put forward there. So it's a fairly solid theory, but it's not watertight.

41:10 Jeffrey Besecker Alfie, can you discuss for us the fine line between using humor for social acceptance and relying on it to avoid addressing deeper emotional issues?

41:19 Alfie Noakes If the question was, is it possible for somebody to believe that the target of a joke when they're not? The answer is absolutely yes. And, you know, just a brief glimpse at certain sections of the Internet will demonstrate that. I think it's something within human nature. We tend to judge, for example, as I'm sure you know, we tend to judge other people by our own standards. Yeah, so very often if somebody, let's say a comedian on stage, is talking about a group, whoever that might be, and an audience member feels they fall within that group, they can start taking it much more personally than in any way that the comedian ever imagined. They are talking about the group, not the individual. And it could be a political party, for example. Somebody votes with a certain political party, the comedian's making a joke about that political party, And the audience member who votes that way feels, some of them, not all of them, very few of them in fact, but certainly some of them do feel that this joke is targeted at them. Which it just takes but a second to step back and go, well, that just clearly isn't the case because there's no way the comedian knows this audience member at all, and they certainly don't know which way they vote. Now, medians can obviously have a guess if you're in a certain region of the country. I'm an Englishman, but I'm well aware there are red states and blue states in America. And if somebody starts coming in and doing all sorts of jokes against one party in the wrong state, yeah, maybe they've read the room wrong. But there is an experience of people believing that the targets of jokes when they're not. My opinion is comedians cannot be expected to work around that. I think the audience carries a degree of responsibility for seeing it for what it is. And you know what, if you're walking into a comedy show, I would hope that people are coming in with good humor with the expectation of laughing. If they're looking for reasons to be offended, maybe a comedy room isn't for them in the first place.

43:10 Jeffrey Besecker As we get close to wrapping up here today, looking at that line, is there or might there be a certain sense of moral responsibility, either as a comedian or an individual, walking that line responsibly and nobly?

43:27 Alfie Noakes Who is the comedian morally responsible to or for, is my question to you. Who are they morally responsible to? Are you suggesting it's to the audience?

43:37 Jeffrey Besecker That's a great question, I think, that tiptoes us up to simply exploring how we value others. Would you not agree in some regards? How we value others, whether that's as a comedian or as an individual in the general population.

43:54 Alfie Noakes Well, again, I'll take this from the point of view as a standard comedian might approach this from stage. It's probably worth understanding that in comedy, it can be divided any number of ways, but the two I'll focus on here are the unknown comedians and the known comedians. So for example, one could go to a really good comedy club on a Saturday night or a Friday night, and they're all great comedians. You don't get to be paid for doing comedy unless you've spent years in the trenches, working for free, doing the open mics. And then by the time you get paid, you're genuinely very good and skilled. But the audience might not know the first thing about you because you haven't got a television presence. That's another tier of comedians. So, somebody who buys a ticket for one of those shows, they're going on the expectation of being entertained, but they have no knowledge of the people they're seeing. And therefore, they don't necessarily know if one of them's a musical comedian, or one of them's a political comedian, or one of them is a storyteller. They just don't know. They're just going on the anticipation that they're good, funny people. By and large, that's exactly what they'll get. Bang for their buck and they'll laugh lots. However, there was a higher tier of comedian, or a different tier, not even higher, but a different tier of comedian who has a profile. I will just arbitrarily pick one of our great comedians here in the UK, Jimmy Carr. I believe he's quite well known there in the States as well. A brilliant joke teller. He's been very famous in this country for, I guess, close to 20 years now. I think globally successful. Jimmy is an act that tells some pretty close to the edge jokes, and he's brilliant at it. They've come to try and cancel him I think four or so times now. The fact is, if you want to go and see Jimmy Carr, I don't know exactly what a ticket costs, but I guess 40 quid, I guess that's about $50. And you know it's Jimmy you're going to see. You're not going to lay down $50, 40 quid for a comedian you've got no idea who they are. You're working at the higher echelons now. So, he's going to attract an audience who like that kind of comedy. They know they're going to get some edgy jokes, they're going to hear some foul language and everything that goes with it. So, that audience is well informed. If they go and see Jimmy Carr, they know what they're getting. The audience otherwise is just going for comedy and they may not like some of what they see because they're not suitably researched And I don't expect them to be, by the way. They're just going to be given a smorgasbord, a salad of comedy. They may not like one of the acts, but on a bill of three or four, they'll still get plenty of laughs. But the comedian's responsibility is to make an audience laugh. And then ultimately, they're probably aiming to make specifically their audience laugh. But any moral responsibility they have is purely on their own shoulders based upon what they believe is morally right, is my opinion. And if they're free speech purists, which I think becomes a trickier issue all the time in an internet-linked world at every moment of the day with all of our devices, freedom of speech is more difficult an issue than it would have been 30 years ago, I believe. But if they're a free speech purist, then they're going to believe they can say anything they like. On the other side of the coin, some comedians might have strong political convictions one way or the other, or social convictions one way or the other, and they're not going to cross that line because that's simply their own moral standards. And some people are just going to tell any joke they can to get the laugh, because that's what they do. Whether they have moral responsibility, to finally answer your question, is a case-by-case choice, comedian-by-comedian, and in my experience, almost every one of them, almost every time, gets it right.

47:18 Jeffrey Besecker In that regard, wrapping up today, perhaps our power with humor ultimately lies in our ability to read the room.

47:27 Alfie Noakes Reading the room helps, but somebody with particularly potent comic ability can read the room and then lead the room. So a great comedian might come on stage and say something that sounds incredibly controversial. it may sound, it might actually be incredibly controversial. But if they can raise the tension straight out of the gate with this controversial comment, the audience become somewhat anxious and tense. And then they drop a killer punchline that kind of spins our understanding. And the audience can't but help themselves but to laugh. The comedian has now won them over and then can lead them into maybe darker territory than they would be normally willing to accept. Reading the room is only part of the story. Leading the room is the high level.

48:12 Jeffrey Besecker Alfie, thank you for that fresh insight. Hopefully that gives us a new perspective today. Finally, wrapping up, if you could leave us with three tips on how we can empower our comedy, our humor, to connect and create greater bonds, what would those be?

48:29 Alfie Noakes Well, I'm a guy who runs lots and lots of open mic shows. I don't want to sound crass here, but I'm going to recommend that most people should have a go at doing open mic comedy, which is something that terrifies them. It's an open stage that almost anybody can turn up and do. They might not realize it takes weeks, even months to get booked on a show. and then it forces them into a position to write some comedy. I've got some online courses that can help with this. Some people could have just got enough fun stories that they've told in the pub. They're not exactly transferable to the stand-up comedy stage, but really it's just something about crossing that psychological Rubicon of showing oneself to have the courage to do it. Very often when I say to people I work in stand-up, the absolute most common response is, oh, I just couldn't do that. But the fact is the stakes really aren't that high in an open mic room. Nobody else cares anything as much as the performer themselves. You know, even the act that did best on a show that's really done great, there's a great act in open mic, there really are. But I've heard so many audiences leave the room talking to each other and I'll hear one say to the other, so which was your favorite act? They don't know their name. They just go, the tall guy with the red shirt was my favorite. The stakes aren't as high as people think, so I would recommend have a look at wearefunnyproject.com, which is my website. There's a free ebook there that has loads of advice for people who are in or thinking of starting comedy. Take some of that advice, go and do some stand-up. It forces one to think about issues, their own life experiences, and how to sprinkle the funny on it. And having done it once, I recommend doing it at least half a dozen times, because that first one's just going to be overwhelmed with kind of the nerves of the experience, the majesty of the experience. the third, fourth and fifth, you start getting a real feel for it. And it's a great way of meeting new people, meeting new friends. And obviously all the time you're not on stage, you're being faced by people who are trying to make you laugh, which is largely a very pleasant experience. As far as also trying to be funny, I think nearly all comedy has to be predicated on some truth. a recognition of truth. I think higher-end comedy addresses an unspoken truth or a common experience. So being observant and looking around. And then for those who don't know where to begin, if they wanted to have a go at stand-up comedy, it's really not so One of the things I teach in my courses is avoiding the blank page and screen. I'm well aware of people who would like to try comedy, they just don't know where to begin. And the worst thing one can do is sit down with effectively the blank page and a pen and go, right, how do I write a joke? What's a joke? I urge people not to start that way. I would suggest going around with a digital voice recorder and notepad and just go for a one hour walk in a place where there's lots of people, an airport, a shopping mall, whatever it might be, and just note the things that annoy, irritate or surprise us. and just list them down. In an hour, one will easily find 20 or 30 of those. And then the next day, sit down, look at that list of 20 or 30. You can probably just go, yeah, that one still stands up. That one's, yeah, I can still feel that. That doesn't seem like such a good idea now. Edit it down to the three, four, five or six that seem the strongest. And there's your starting point in your comedy. Because every comedian, it's really, what it comes down to, it's their take on the world. It really is that. A lot of people in the world feel unheard. I'm sure you're aware of this. Well, they're going to hear you when you're amplified in an open mic room on a comedy stage, elevated above them with a spotlight. You know, they have to listen to you. So I urge people who are starting out in comedy, and indeed many more seasoned acts, make sure that it's coming down to, this is what I reckon. This is my take on the world. And you will find by identifying surprising and irritating and annoying aspects of the culture, you're not alone. And then other people in the audience are like, yeah, I get it. I feel that as well. And not only do you get the joke to work, but you build something of a subconscious bond with your audience, which can only be helpful.

52:21 Jeffrey Besecker Thank you for joining us today. I am truly grateful for you sharing your insights and perspectives with us. Namaste. The light in me acknowledges the light in you, my friend.

52:31 Alfie Noakes I thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed myself. Thank you very much.

52:35 Jeffrey Besecker This truly has been a fun conversation. Let's connect again soon.

52:39 Alfie Noakes I look forward to it. Thank you. Thank you.

52:45 Jeffrey Besecker Life is an incredible journey, a captivating blend of comedy, tragedy and magic, a spectacle truly filled with awe and wonder. In the face of adversity, we find our strength and in the moments of joy, we discover our true selves. Through all the ups and downs, remember that humor is our guiding light, capable of filling our hearts with laughter and brightening even the darkest night. Embrace life's challenges and cherish its blessings, for it is this beautiful chaos that makes each day an unforgettable adventure. Let's laugh, cry, and create the magic that is life. If you found this message meaningful, please share it with a friend or loved one. And as always, we're grateful for you, our valued listening community. This has been the Light Inside. I'm Jeffrey Besecker.