Active Listening and Emotional Intelligence: Keys to Deeper Relationships

Active Listening and Emotional Intelligence: Keys to Deeper Relationships

Jeffrey Besecker:
This is The Light Inside. I'm Jeffrey Besecker. Welcome to another illuminating episode where we shed light on the inner workings of the human mind and spirit. In this installment, we're doing a deep dive into the factors that help or hinder our ability to communicate and consciously connect in a more meaningful way. We all know that effective communication is the bedrock of a healthy relationship, whether romantic, plutonic, or professional. But have we stopped to consider all the unseen barriers that may be obstructing us from truly hearing and being heard? One major obstruction is called parataxic distortion, where we unknowingly replace the intended meaning of what someone says with our own preconceived notions and assumptions. It's like having a filter over our ears that twists the message. But there are habits and mindsets we can cultivate to transcend these walls between us. Practices like active listening, suspending judgment, and approaching our relationships with compassion can be life-changing. On today's show, we'll be joined by psychologist Fred Talisman to unpack the subconscious patterns and cognitive biases that can alienate our conscious connections. We'll learn practical ways to become more aware of our filtering distortions so we can let our true interconnectedness to shine through. Fred will also share empowering traits like empathy, openness, and emotional intelligence that allow us to communicate and connect on a deeper level. We'll leave this episode with a fresh perspective and toolkit to forge more connected bonds in all our relationships. Today we learned to access the essential skills and traits that empower deeper connection through our relationship lives. Tune in to find out how, when we return to The Light Inside. When it comes to mobile service providers, with their high-rate plans, extra fees, and hidden cost or expenses, many of the big-name networks leave a bad taste in your mouth. Mint Mobile is a new flavor of mobile network service, sharing all the same reliable features of the big name brands, yet at a fraction of the cost. I recently made the change to Mint Mobile and I can't believe the monthly savings, allowing me to put more money in my pocket for the things which truly light me up inside. Making the switch to Mint Mobile is easy. Hosted on the T-Mobile 5G network, Mint gives you premium wireless service on the nation's largest 5G network. With bulk savings on flexible plan options, Mint offers 3-, 6-, and 12-month plans, and the more months you buy, the more you save. Plus, you can also keep your current phone or upgrade to a new one, keep your current number or change to a new one as well, and all of your contacts, apps, and photos will seamlessly and effortlessly follow you to your new low-cost Mint provider. Did I mention the best part? You keep more money in your pocket. And with Mint's referral plan, you can rescue more friends from big wireless bills while earning up to $90 for each referral. Visit our Mint Mobile affiliate link at thelightinside.us forward slash sponsors for additional mobile savings or activate your plan in minutes with the Mint Mobile app. Marriages are built and thrive on interconnectedness and communication. You probably know of people who went to marriage counseling only to wind up ending their relationship. Healthy marriages are interdependent on healthy relationships, and healthy relationships thrive on communication. Communication is an essential skill of human interconnectedness and survival, yet we often discount one crucial aspect of this skill set. Listening not only empowers us with the traits of deeper understanding, it also opens the gateway that reunites our inherent interconnectedness. pushing us beyond the illusion of separation we often create in our conscious perception of life. Today we're joined by psychologist and renowned relationship specialist, Fred Talisman. Throughout his 20-plus year career, Fred has forged the healing bonds of connections, reuniting his clients with the healthy skills to build more engaged, empowered, and interconnected relationships. Commonly seen as an integral force in relationship therapy, as a relationship expert, Fred has been featured extensively in publications such as Psychology Today, appearing on numerous talk shows, and is considered one of California's leading experts in guiding couples in averting the devastating repercussions of divorce. Today, Fred shares his infinite wealth of communication wisdom as we explore the deeper subconscious and unconscious factors that often hinder this one essential skill of conscious communication, active listening. Fred, the purpose of today's lesson is to explore the habits, skills, and traits that create open, vulnerable, and connected relationships that are unified in love and integrity. As a result of emotional trauma and defense responses, sometimes we often approach our relationships from a somewhat distorted or filtered perspective of emotional dysregulation. So Fred, to start off today, what are some of the foundational factors that lead to active listening and healthier channels of communication?

Fred Talisman: What I'd love to do is share with you, with anybody I work with, to help them improve their relationship and or save their relationship. There's a foundation of skills that I teach them. This is very specific to them in their relationships. I'd like to start off by sharing that with you. The first is to help them to be able to either stay connected and or to reconnect to the love that brought them together in the first place. Because that ability is what sees an individual and a couple through difficult times. The next is to be able to deal with the negative and to dwell in the positive. What that means more specifically in a romantic relationship is in most relationships really early into the relationship when both people begin to create in their minds a generalized negative case against the other person. They keep looking for evidence to reinforce that negative case. And the bigger negative case a person builds in their mind against the other person, the more unhappy they feel, the more disconnected they feel, the more out of love they feel, and the more they use that case to justify themselves bad communication and bad behavior. So one of the keys to help a person to get back on track in the relationship and to stay on track is to help them reverse that negative case and replace it with a positive one. I believe what people most want in relationship and communication is to feel like they're being heard and understood. Not necessarily agreed with, but heard and understood. And again, when a person feels heard and understood, they tend to be more cooperative and they tend to open up more in more meaningful ways. When a person doesn't feel heard and understood, they tend to either withdraw, attack, or defend. And there's a difference between hearing somebody and understanding them and them feeling heard and understood, two separate things.

Jeffrey Besecker: Fred, as a result of past memories and neural imprinting, trauma can often distort our perceptions of time and engagement in conversations. Why is it important to empathetically reinforce our attention when communicating?

Fred Talisman: There's only one timing that works to communicate with anybody, but especially in a romantic relationship and especially in parenting. And the timing is when you're in a positive and calm place, especially about and toward the other person, and they're in a positive and calm place, especially about and toward you. people instead of that do a combination of extremes. They either speak when they're in negative emotion and whether or not makes them feel temporarily better is guaranteed to make things worse with and for the other person. Or they stir things up and periodically explode, which makes things worse. Or they emotionally and or physically draw off the relationship, which makes things worse. The next is having a way of communicating, something that I think that you already do. I saw you do that with Jollyologist. way of communicating a relationship that the person feels consistently respected, appreciated, and emotionally supported. The next is having a way of working out agreements that we both feel good about the agreements we're making. I call them mutually satisfying agreements. Most of us are raised to believe that when you love somebody, that you should make sacrifices for them. And that's a noble idea when it comes to raising children and it comes to caring for pets. Making sacrifices works when it comes to romantic relationship. Making sacrifices doesn't work, tends to break down because at times the person feels like they're making sacrifices for the other person. They wind up in their mind, holding that person accountable to debts and agreements were never made. And they wind up feeling resentful and resentment is a relationship killer. In contrast to that, as people master the skills I teach them to create agreements they both feel good about, then it's a done deal. There's no resentment and there's no residuals. The next that I call emotionally reconnecting communication. In most relationships, almost from the very beginning, really once the newness wears off, people are primarily fact-based communications. And when you're living together, when you're raising kids together, when you have pets together, if you're doing a business together, there's a certain amount of discussion of facts you have to have. But there's nothing about talking about facts that creates any kind of feeling of closeness or connection. So emotionally reconnecting communication is about how to communicate beyond the facts. The next is being able to create a shared vision for the future together, and that consists of clarifying those qualities that you want to bring into the relationship and those qualities you want the other person to bring into the relationship. And then further clarify for each of you which of those qualities are optional and which ones are non-negotiable. When a non-negotiable isn't being met, it doesn't mean or imply that a person shouldn't or can't stay with their partner. I just want to make sure if they're my client, I'm helping them work through and resolve each of their non-negotiables. Now, when I first started doing that part of the work with people, I made the totally incorrect assumption, I was totally wrong, that people knew what they wanted in their relationship. I first started doing this to people, I'd say, give them the definition I just gave you, and they'd say, between now and the next session, write down your relationship standards, email them to me, and next session I'll help you to fine-tune them. And people would average five to ten standards, usually closer to five. And I'd do it with them, we'd average dozens, and dozens, and dozens. I stopped giving that assignment early on, because for everybody I've ever done that part of the work with, at least 95% of what a person wants in their relationship is not at the conscious level. And you can't think about, talk about, and negotiate for what you're not conscious of.

Jeffrey Besecker: Fred, generally speaking, parataxic distortions and perceptual filters produce distortions in our outlook, especially when it comes to interpersonal relationships based on the tendency to perceive others through the lens of our past experiences. With this being particularly true when we are in an emotionally reactive state, can you elaborate on the role that emotional connection and communication plays in maintaining a sense of closeness and shared vision in our relationships?

Fred Talisman: I think the biggest disruption is feeling safe in your relationship. I think most people times in their relationship lie either directly or by withholding information because they don't feel safe to tell the truth. So I had a defining moment growing up to define my entire relationship with my parents. I was five years old. I was playing catch with a friend and I threw the ball and it broke the neighbor's window. And I told my parents, And here was their response. They said, thank you for telling us that it was really hard to tell us. We know you didn't do that on purpose. We're not going to punish you. We know you didn't do it on purpose. We're going to go with you right now to the neighbors and we are going to apologize to them. We're going to tell them we're going to pay for replacing their window. And all we ask you to do is from now on, when you're playing catch, don't face anybody's windows, including ours. And that was it. And that told me at five years old, it was safe to tell my parents the truth. So safety really only comes when people feel safe to tell the truth. That's when people are honest, consistently, whether it's adults or children.

Jeffrey Besecker: Love that we had the little chime in the back there as you made that statement about being safe to tell the truth. You know, it's such a wonderful model of seeing how healthy parenting plays out, how that communication and healthy communication plays out. So healthy communication skills in active listening or paramount in that regard in fostering connected relationships as they facilitate that mutual understanding and empathy. Fred, in order to address each other in our relationships from an emotionally modulated and regulated space, what practices can we engage in to build and empower these traits?

Fred Talisman: It starts with ourselves of having the clarity that if you come from, talked about last time about choice points, about knowing how you want to make your partner positively feel and making sure what you say and how you say it supports that goal. I call it honesty with a positive purpose. So if you're really mindful of that, that's a really big element to help people feel safe to tell the truth. And then another is that when they say things or do things that you have a reaction to, to not show judgment. We all have judgments. We all have opinions. Doesn't mean it's really great for it to come out of our mouths. So in other words, that every decision we make, there are benefits and consequences. And if you know your priorities, if you know that your priorities for your partner and your kids always feel safe to tell the truth, then you want to stay committed to your part in that because you're the one that really creates that.

Jeffrey Besecker: In that regard, how do we first establish the space within our own actions so that we can create a place where we feel mutually secure and accepted throughout our relationships?

Fred Talisman: So I talked about having that clarity, that integrity. A lot of what makes a relationship work is a person with themselves, their integrity with themselves, their commitment to themselves, how they want to be as a partner, how they want to be as a parent. So if you're always coming from that clarity, then you're going to be on track in how you respond, how you communicate, how you support.

Jeffrey Besecker: Emotional dysregulation often leads us to unhealthy coping mechanisms, which can result in us lashing out or acting out in ways that cause conflict or division. Fred, in order to address each other from a more emotionally modulated space, what practices can we engage in to build and empower these traits and realign from a space of emotional regulation?

Fred Talisman: A really great one is the concept that I got from a management book on the one minute manager. And my version was catching the other person doing things right. So in other words, I recommend that the listeners create a note on their phone that they call their partner appreciation note. And every time you think anything positive about your partner in any level about how they are with you, how they are with others, their nature, their positive qualities, anything positive, you add that to that note in any time. You can even have the clear blue, you can say, I was just thinking about you and I was thinking about what a kind person you are, seeing how loving you are with our cat, whatever it is, so that you really get in the habit. And then of course, anything positive your partner does, make sure to verbalize it right at the point that you appreciate that. And it's okay to repeat yourself. It serves a dual purpose. It makes that partner feel seen in a really positive way, and your reinforcement to yourself helps you to break up your negative case in your mind against your partner. I see and value your specialness. All of us want to be seen in a relationship at that level. When you catch a person doing right, they feel that they're being seen at that level.

Jeffrey Besecker: Relationships that are emotionally co-regulated thrive on active listening and responsive communication channels. And trusting our actions allows us to securely extend this trust in our relationships. Fred, if we view ourselves from this perspective or from that avatar, how can we first cultivate this trait of shared integrity?

Fred Talisman: by modeling. In other words, live how you want to be. One of my favorite stories of Mahatma Gandhi was that before he was world famous, he was famous in his country and he used to have public audience for people who come to him like as a life coach. This woman came to and she said, Great Gandhi, here's my son and he's a sugar addict. He really respects you. He acts really crazy on sugar. So please tell him to stop eating sugar and he will. And Gandhi said, I'm happy to do that. Bring your son back in three days and I'll do that. And then she and her son are dismissed. And his assistant's really upset. and whispers in Gandhi's ear, these people are poor, probably living in the street for three days. Why in the world wouldn't you tell her son right now on the spot to stop eating sugar? And Gandhi looked at him and smiled and he said, it will take me three days to get off sugar. One of Gandhi's core principles, core beliefs as a teacher, as a leader, as a husband, as a parent, is to live what he taught to others and live what he asked of others.

Jeffrey Besecker: Considering these relationship dynamics, how can we then extend these relationship dynamics to foster a stronger sense of shared psychological safety?

Fred Talisman: I think that if you're practicing the skills, whether your partner does it or not, that your partner is either going to model that without you asking them, or if they're not, then when you ask them, you're going to have more credibility with them because you're asking from them what you're already doing.

Jeffrey Besecker: That shared sense of integrity then becomes an essential trait when showing mutual trust and respect in those relationships. Yet psychological tolerance and cognitive fluidity or that ability to change and adapt sometimes becomes that inhibitive block. Considering these dynamics of healthy communication and trust, are there core skills or traits we can develop together as a couple and within our relationships that also help to build this bond?

Fred Talisman: Great question. First of all, I'd like to talk about the individual. Most of the relationships I save, most relationships I fix, I only get to work with one person because the other person won't be part of the process. And often when people are getting help together, they're not coming individually with the mindset to do their work. They're coming to use the help as a forum to put down their partner and make their case against their partner with an audience. So that's why I really like to talk to people, even if I'm working with them together, about them individually, so they own their part.

Jeffrey Besecker: So as we're unraveling all of that mystery, what are some of the core traits or factors that often pop up in that interaction that we sometimes trigger trauma responses or sometimes are there learned behaviors and habits, conditioned responses that jump in?

Fred Talisman: Sure, that's a great question. I think that we all come into relationship with personal history in part that's unresolved. It's inevitable things can happen in a relationship that will trigger the feelings from the unresolved history. And the more you can become mindful about what's coming up and the more you're practicing only communicating when you're in positive emotion, then you have a way to not bring that into your relationship in a negative way. Because when we're in negative emotion or communicating, our intelligence, our abilities to be rational tend to go out the window. No matter how good our communication skills are, it's too hard to do them when we're in negative emotion. So that timing is a critical element.

Jeffrey Besecker: In that regard, when developing open, vulnerable and secure relationship dynamics, how essential is it that we assess and develop those shared core values, especially in those earlier phases of a relationship when we're starting to establish that strong, healthy foundation?

Fred Talisman: I think that it's really good to share with your partner. I talked in the first episode about finding a person's viewpoint and the other side of that is helping to understand your viewpoint. So when you have a value that you don't see your partner has, if you're not being controlling or judgmental, let's say, this is my value and this is why I have this value, at least you have that dialogue going. When there's that openness and you're both coming from respect and support, then across time those shared values emerge, but they're done in a cooperative way, not in a coercive way or manipulative way or controlling way.

Jeffrey Besecker: So do you feel as we're starting romantic relationships, how essential is it that we assess that early lovey-dovey, head over heels phase and start some of that core foundation in those early interactions? Tell me more about the things you value. Tell me more about your belief systems. Tell me more about your family history. And do we often overstep some of those patterns?

Fred Talisman: I don't think you can overstep it unless you're coming from judgment. If you come from that tool that I taught in our first episode about positive acknowledgement, you don't have to agree with somebody to say, thank you for telling me that. Thank you for sharing. Those kinds of responses, those positive acknowledgement responses, they make that person feel safe to tell you their truth.

Jeffrey Besecker: Are there some key tips or some key habits or interactions we can start to develop? You know, I know that place of vulnerability itself, if we've had trauma, if we're emotionally dysregulated, sometimes if we have a learned behavior, social awkwardness can be difficult to just openly share those to begin with. Are there some key takeaways that we can kind of build to assess, you know, maybe fun games or, hey, you know, I'll tell you this if you tell me that kind of back and forth exchanges that build that interaction and erode and dissolve some of that inner insecurity.

Fred Talisman: I think that if you have the commitment to yourself to share with your partner, then that creates that ongoing open dialogue. When I was first trained to be a guest and talk radio, my trainer who had been had this top talk show in LA for eight years said to me, the first coaching session, speak to the listening before the listening speaks to you. I said, that sounds great. I have no idea what that means. He said, well, when you're doing talk radio and you're live, and even if there's questions and answers, if you're in a larger show, only a tiny fraction of the people are going to get to ask you their questions. Do you want to be aware of what questions you might be raising in them and speak to and answer those questions? And that's a really useful concept in a relationship, that knowing your partner, there's certain things you're going to say and or do that you know are going to raise questions for them. And just speak to that. In other words, you can do what's called reason why communication. Reason why is created by this amazing guy named Robert Cialdini, came up with this idea of people more cooperative to give them a brief reason why. So one of the ways he tested his theory, he had a bunch of research assistants stand at supermarket checkout lines, the busiest time of day, and their assignment was to get to the front of the line, both using reason why and not using reason why. So they said the person in front of them, can I get in front of you? No, there's no reason. Can I get in front of you? People say, well, no. Wait your return, didn't go over well. But they said, for example, I'm going to be late for work. Do you mind if I get in front of you? Sure, you're welcome to. So people are a lot more understanding, a lot more cooperative. You give them a brief, key words, brief reason why. The longer reason why you give them, the more frustrated they're going to get. I think there's a great value in committing to yourself to practice kindness. And my best model for kindness, it's all things Fred Rogers. Mr. Rogers, he embodied kindness. And all the documentaries I've seen on him, that everyone that knew him said he was that way, not just on the show, but with everyone in his life. So I try to be kind at that level. When you're practicing kindness, it just comes through. It creates a whole different feeling in your relationship.

Jeffrey Besecker: Fred Rogers is such a great example of that, hearkening back to that conversation with Alan. He also mentioned that role of him working with Captain Kangaroo, another childhood figure who is establishing some of those early healthy childhood boundaries. How do you feel when we lack some of that childhood upbringing? We bridge some of that space when we don't learn model behaviors or emotional conditioning that start to instill some of those core values in us.

Fred Talisman: Great question. So with the skills you're listening or learning in these episodes, you and I talking, as you employ these skills and these concepts, you have the choice to no longer be limited or bound by your past. We all have a past, we're not stuck with it.

Jeffrey Besecker: So in that regard, irregardless of that past, we have suppressed memories, we have implicit memories. There's quite a few unconscious responses that occur in our central nervous system where by deflecting that past and just say I don't have a choice now to engage that past, we continue that cycle of suppression where we don't go back then and address where that core trauma or that quote childhood wounding took place. We haven't evolved past that because it's still now a neural imprint spiraling backward and forward and bouncing around in there until we start to consciously address it and unravel some of that underlying meaning and reasoning. How do we start to engage some of those from your perspective?

Fred Talisman: One way to do that is to reparent your inner child. So I'll share with you that years ago, I was in the mountains. I was with a friend. We were walking an icy road. I lost my footing. I fell. I couldn't get up. It's the weirdest experience. and she called 9-1-1. And I was rushed 60 miles to the closest hospital. Turned out I had broken my hip. So I had emergency hip surgery. A year later, because I was young enough, they were going to do a second surgery, take out all the plate and pins from the first surgery. So really minor operation compared to the first one. And the closer to the date of that surgery, the second surgery I was getting, the more terrified I felt. So on a logical, rational basis, it didn't make sense, but I was feeling more and more terror. So I decided that was my inner child. So I had a conversation with him in writing, because he asked for me to do that in writing, and said, what's going on? And he said, I'm feeling really, really, really scared. I said, well, about what? He said, they're going to slice up my leg, that's what. I said, well, how do you know that? He said, ah, you're making pictures. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to imagine TV screens in front of you, and that will give you this giant stack of big, black, sticky spit wads. The moment you see them beginning to do that surgery on that TV screen, throw the spit wads and cover the entire screen with those sticky, sticking spit wads. And the moment I imagined throwing the spit wads, my entire body relaxed. And every time before that surgery, I started to feel any fear about the upcoming surgery. Imagine my inner child throwing this black sticky spit wads. In preparation for recovery time in the hospital, I planned two activities. For my adult self, there are these nonfiction books I've been wanting to read. And I brought some really great classical music. And then for my inner child, I brought hot rock and roll. in portable computer games. In the entire recovery time, all I did in the hospital was play rock and roll and computer games. So that's one way, is the way you work with your inner child is the way you work with any child, actual child, with unconditional love and kindness and support. And the way you know your inner child is present Because often we have feelings without the conscious awareness of what they're connected to, like from those past memories or traumas. The way you know that inner child is present is in your adult logical, rational way of working with yourself aren't working. There's a good possibility at that moment your inner child is present.

Jeffrey Besecker: Do we sometimes use that proverbial covering the screen with the spit wads as a way to suppress and avoid some of those emotional responses where we aren't fully processing those values and meanings? Bobby, Bobby is our child today, and he's got four-year-old, five-year-old kid. Let's get four-year-old, five-year-old kid, you know, starting to have a little bit of sense of space and awareness. We're starting to be able to form some values and reason. And Bobby wakes up at night and for any unsuspected reason, let's add this ripple. Bobby has sleep apnea. His tonsils are enlarged. And as a result, he has disrupted sleep because of his breathing pattern. So Bobby wakes up at night. Bobby has intense nightmares as a result of this screaming, Dad, there's spiders in my room. Bobby's dad comes in and says, Bobby, just cover the screen. Just imagine the spiders aren't there. So Bobby develops the habit of every time now he's emotionally triggered by that response, whether it be fear, whether he has a little self-doubt. Bobby then says, but just cover my eyes and pretend it's not there. I've now not learned to connect with that emotion and embody it and make a relationship with it. So Bobby goes through life. Now Bobby meets Cindy. We're doing the Brady Bunch today. Bobby's a Brady. That'd be weird. No, we can't do that. Hold on. OK. Cindy is not a Brady Bunch because that would be weird. We would have some issues. But Bobby and Cindy are now relating. And now Bobby, out of his fear, is a little apprehensive about talking to Cindy. So he shuts down. because he's developed that screen to block out that fear. And now Bobby has a secondary emotion that starts to pop up subconsciously. Now I also feel guilt and shame because dad told me not to feel that fear. Suck it up, you're a man. You're going to be a man one day and some young lady is going to turn to you. Suck it up and hide that fear. Let's parse that out if we can.

Fred Talisman: OK, well, if I had a client that came to me with that, I'd say, give Bobby a flashlight. So from now on, Bobby's afraid there's spiders in this room and turn his flashlight and see they're not there and empower Bobby to be able to, I'm a big believer in empowering children, empowering everybody, especially children. So I'd be okay, Bobby, you're afraid there's spiders.

null: So here's your flashlight.

Fred Talisman: And then you'll see there's no spiders. And then there is the spiders. Call me right away. I'll take care of that.

Jeffrey Besecker: So now bobby goes through life and he starts looking for his flashlight I need to feel like the ennobled empowered warrior every time I face emotions. I feel like I have to bash it on my head Or bash it on its head or maybe mine, you know I don't know sometimes it plays out both ways from my experience in coaching others where sometimes you turn that flashlight and bash yourself on the head or bash yourself on the soul or the heart or wherever you start to form that value and meaning to beat that emotion down. Or you feel like you have to go through everything in life now. Now my thing is I've got to take my flashlight and lash out at others in some way, whether it be verbally bashing down or my bashing down now becomes overachieving. The harder I bash that emotion down with my achievement, the more I run from that emotion. Let's parse that out now. What had happened if the father would have come back and said, Bobby, it's perfectly normal to have those emotions. We all feel insecure sometimes. We're all a little scared. I'm just here to sit with you. Tell me more about those emotions.

Fred Talisman: I think that'd be great if I first give Bobby the flashlight and have him look around the room with me in there to see there's no spiders. I do both. So I work with a lot of victims of violent crimes. I worked with to help them to release the trauma of that. I work with a lot of people that suffered severe emotional, physical child abuse. So what I found has worked the best for a lot of them is I learned in neurolinguistic programming called change personal history. which involves helping a person to number one, be able to think about what happened in a way that doesn't re-traumatize them without denying it, and then also give some ways to re-empower their younger self. So they have a choice to both think of what happened in the traumatic way it happened and or to create a different experience about what happened without denying the reality that happened. So those are some of the ways I practically help people that have dealt with children and adults that dealt with trauma or abuse.

Jeffrey Besecker: So now Bobby, he's had this issue of sleep apnea. He was four or five, started having these traumatic nightmares. And even though he's been loved and held, in that scenario, he still wakes up with the nightmares. And Bobby then still, as a result of cultural conditioning, friends waking up at night, I'm sleeping over and I still have this fear and I still reframe it and I still feel they listen to me. But now I still have this unaddressed guilt and shame. Now I still have the sleep apnea and I still wake up. Now the fear has grown and I have this raging anxiety that I've carried through with life. I'm looking at scenarios here where despite being heard, before, we still might not have made that bond because some of the conditions still carry forward. You know, I've seen some worst case scenarios where those things play out still, that despite having that strong upbringing, there's still additional factors where we're emotionally triggered.

Fred Talisman: Yeah, and we can't stop triggers from happening. They just come up in our life when we get triggered. What I like to do is empower people to have choice to how they respond when they get triggered, both internally and externally.

Jeffrey Besecker: I feel sometimes we get off track a little bit, even in that course with very safe, healthy upbringings, of that nuance and complexity of emotionality, of change and adapt and grow and evolve. Even just that relationship with the word trigger. Some people hear, oh, you're emotionally triggered, and it automatically does that very thing, yet every emotion is a triggered response. that stimulus interaction that basically flips the switch of emotionality and starts all of those internal processes at foot. Sets off that entire interaction or chain series of events from our thought down to the chemical interaction, down to the electrical neural interactions throughout our body that set that whole chain of events. It's all a series of responses Yet somehow we stigmatize that interaction and that word itself, triggered, becomes a trigger point. Neurolinguistics in program.

Fred Talisman: So one of the ways to help people who have been traumatized is to help them to reframe the trauma. In other words, give them a different way to think about it so that rather than feeling like they're a victim, that they can see that they can repurpose that experience and see it as a strength. So when I was a child, my parents started a business. I was an only child and I became a latchkey kid because I thought I was old enough to take care of myself and I developed really severe OCD symptoms. It was probably one of the worst times of my life and they weren't psychologically oriented. They didn't know what was going on with me and I was able to get through that and no longer am OCD. That was maybe a couple year period and there's no traces of that even though there's still triggers for that sometimes. But that experience gave me an incredible compassion for people who are suffering, because I was in ongoing emotional suffering during that time. And so I can think about that experience and that gets re-triggered and go, oh, I'm grateful for that experience. I'm grateful, number one, I'll never have that again, because I'm committed to that. And I'm grateful for having that because it gave me a level of compassion for others I would have never had otherwise. The part of my healing from that was to reframe it for myself.

Jeffrey Besecker: And lastly, today, as we summarize things up for our community of change leading professionals, you know, we're speaking directly to other coaches and change leaders when considering how emotional dysregulation serves as a core cause for those dysfunctional relationship patterns. Often, could you share a few key tips with us as providers or practitioners that create those bonds of support and security as we start to walk our clients up to an understanding of these patterns and principles and we work them through that.

Fred Talisman: Sure. The answer is Star Trek. One of my favorite scenes in all Star Trek movies was in Star Trek 2 when Captain Kirk's stuck in a seemingly impossible situation and he says, I don't believe in the no-win scenario. And that's part of my core belief in my life and as a coach and as a therapist, both for myself and others. that if you as a healer, as a coach, as a therapist, as a helping person can build that in yourself and pass it on to your clients and your patients, because it comes from you to them, you have to live it before you can teach it for it to really take hold. I've been told some of those horrendous things people have gone through. And besides the compassion and empathy I showed them and the skills I have to help them release that trauma, I also come from the belief that I don't believe in a no-win scenario and show them how to use that trauma to empower themselves and to support others. And I believe that's part of the healing process.

Jeffrey Besecker: That could be such an empowering place to simply find yourself and consider that as a possible perspective.

Fred Talisman: Right, because see, I was trained as a traditional therapist, which is how people to understand and work through their feelings. They still were stuck with their feelings. I don't believe people are stuck with their feelings or stuck with their personal history or stuck with their past. I'm not denying it, but it doesn't have to control you or limit you or define you.

Jeffrey Besecker: Ultimately, we're building each of those aspects instant by instant, who and what we believe we are. So we ultimately have the power, create that win-win situation and simply reframe that perspective. As I reflect back on some of my own personal struggles in a particular time in my life, necessarily feel fully beneficial to frame all of the details, but finding yourself in the tub at a point in life where you just feel the weight of the world literally drowning you from life. Found myself in that state once. And as I'm sitting there kind of meditating and roiling around, stewing literally in the waters of those emotions, head on the background kind of meditative music track, and out of nowhere, rather oddly at time, came on a track of Deepak Chopra. And literally the only thing this track said was, release the struggle. in that notorious Deepak Chopra voice. Release the struggle. What trouble? What struggle? What? You know, Deepak. What? That was it. Release the struggle. Sometimes you just got to let go and trust whether it's in those relationships, in those personal interactions, whether it's within your own construct of a created sense of projected self. As you're sitting in those waters, in that time of struggle and need, one simple thing always comes to mind for me now, release the struggle. What you hold on to becomes that hot coal and when that old mantra comes back up of that hot coal that we throw and thrust at each other. I want to thank you for that reminder today, Fred.

Fred Talisman: Sure, and I can give you a way to release the struggle. So one of the ways to help people release the struggle at lots of different levels is to work with the psychological guidelines of the serenity prayer. You probably already know the serenity prayer is God grant me the serenity to accept the things that I can't change, the courage to change things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Almost always our struggles are about things or people that we can't change or control. So I'm a really proactive person to probably figure that out. And if there's a way, you know, to create a change for myself or for others, I'm going to find it and do it. But there's also things, anything I want to do, there's elements that are beyond my control. And sometimes several times a day, I work on being a piece about what and who I can't change or control. And you apply that to a relationship and your kids. It makes you more loving, makes you more relaxed, and it makes you more supportive. Because everybody's on their own path, including your children, and you can support them, but you can't do the work for them.

Jeffrey Besecker: That's an amazing and heartwarming insight to sit with today, Fred. I truly want to thank you for sharing this conversation with us. Your light truly shines, my friend, through and through. Thank you so much. Thank you. It truly has been a pleasure to sit and just share this space with you. My pleasure. Thank you. Namaste. Lighten me. Namaste. All of that lovely lighten you, my friend. Every time we connect, you just light my heart up. To be seen, listened to, heard, and respected. Each serving as a bedrock of human existence. These essential traits, perhaps above all others, empower us to truly thrive. This episode dives deeply into the keys of creating open, vulnerable, and secure connected relationships. Three main points we covered today. Active listening and responsive communication are paramount for fostering mutual understanding and empathy in our relationships. Being truly heard and understood helps us feel emotionally, physiologically, and psychologically safe, allowing us to open up in meaningful ways. Addressing each other from an emotionally regulated state, rather than reacting from past wounds or traumas, allows for healthier relating. And developing conscious awareness around emotional triggers and conscious practices, like vulnerably honoring our partners with gratitude, helps create this regulated space. in establishing core values and vision for the type of relationship we want to co-create is essential, especially early on. Therefore, having open discussions about non-negotiable needs and the qualities we wish to embody helps to align our paths. And finally, empowering you with three practical tips and takeaways to execute these skills, we spoke of the power of respectful appreciation and gratitude in bridging communication gaps and allowing healthy space to recalibrate when we're emotionally triggered before engaging in sensitive discussions. We also shared the essential role of inner child healing practices such as journaling and visualizations as practical tactics for resolving our past wounds and emotional trauma bonds. By applying responsive listening, self-regulation practices, and cultivating shared values, this episode provides a roadmap for creating deeper intimacy and secure functioning relationships. If you found deep value and meaning in today's episode, please share it with a friend or loved one. And as always, we're grateful for you, our valued listening community. We'd also like to thank and acknowledge our amazing team here at The Light Inside. It's through your efforts you help keep this machine well-oiled and functioning. This has been the Light Inside. I'm Jeffrey Besecker.