Breaking the Glass Ceiling on Belief Perseverance Pt. 2 with Mark Fournier

Swell AI Transcript: Breaking the Glass Ceiling on Belief Perseverance Pt. 2 with Mark Fournier

Jeffrey Besecker:
This is The Light Inside. I'm Jeffrey Besecker. Diving into the depths of human perception, we explore the transformative practices that empower our beliefs. In today's episode, we revisit the intricate world of belief perseverance, a phenomena that can be likened to painting ourselves into a box. restricting our adaptability, impeding our emotional regulation, and ultimately, diminishing our overall health, well-being, and life outcomes. Picture this. From the moment we begin to understand the world around us, we start crafting a masterpiece, each stroke of the brush representing a belief, a perception, or an experience. The structure of these beliefs, both big and small, shape the way we view ourselves, others, and the world at large. They become the collars and contours of the reality we inhabit. However, just as a painter might inadvertently trap themselves in a corner of their canvas, our steadfast adherence to these beliefs can create a glass box around us, a transparent but unyielding barrier that confines our potential and stifles our growth. So join us as we return to our ongoing series with Limitless Coach Mark Forney, uncovering the ways in which belief perseverance limits our adaptability, hinders our emotional regulation, and diminishes our optimal health and well-being. Installment number two shares how to break free from the confines of our glass box and step into a world of endless possibilities on this episode of The Light Inside. When it comes to mobile service providers, with their high-rate plans, extra fees, and hidden cost or expenses, many of the big-name networks leave a bad taste in your mouth. Mint Mobile is a new flavor of mobile network service, sharing all the same reliable features of the big name brands, yet at a fraction of the cost. I recently made the change to Mint Mobile and I can't believe the monthly savings, allowing me to put more money in my pocket for the things which truly light me up inside. Making the switch to Mint Mobile is easy. Hosted on the T-Mobile 5G network, Mint gives you premium wireless service on the nation's largest 5G network. With bulk savings on flexible plan options, Mint offers 3-, 6-, and 12-month plans, and the more months you buy, the more you save. Plus, you can also keep your current phone or upgrade to a new one, keep your current number or change to a new one as well, and all of your contact's apps and photos will seamlessly and effortlessly follow you to your new low-cost Mint provider. Did I mention the best part? You keep more money in your pocket. And with Mint's referral plan, you can rescue more friends from big wireless bills while earning up to $90 for each referral. visit our Mint Mobile affiliate link at thelightinside.site forward slash sponsors for additional mobile savings or activate your plan in minutes with the Mint Mobile app.

Mark Fournier: So what will you do with this game of life? How will you play it on the most rewarding levels possible? And questioning everything is like asking, what's the best way to hold the paddle? What are the best strategies so I can play the game with greater skill and so on, so I can enjoy the game more?

Jeffrey Besecker: Imagine, if you will, we lived our life inside a glass box, where every time we have a thought, we write it on a sticky note and place it on one of the walls. Over time, the walls become covered with these notes, representing our conditioning, beliefs, and learned behaviors. Therefore, we can no longer see the outside world clearly, and only view it through the layers of notes we've stuck up over the years. This is subjective reality. All of our perceptions are filtered through these existing beliefs, making them seem like they are the absolute truth. But what if we started peeling those notes off the walls? What if we could see the world for what it truly is, beyond the filter of our past conditioning and beliefs? This would allow us to switch between subjective and objective observation, leading us to a more profound understanding of our personal perceptions and the worlds we inhabit. In our conversation today, we explore the profound power of belief systems and how they mold our perception of reality with Limitless Coach, Marc Fournier. Revisiting our discussion from last week, we examined how these deeply ingrained beliefs influence not only our personal constructs, but also our interactions with others and our interpretation of the world. We'll also delve into the concept of Adaptability and Growth Mindset, highlighting the transformative impact of being open to new experiences and daring to question our long-held convictions. all while accepting outside feedback, embracing a mindset that welcomes change and encourages learning, as we begin to dismantle the walls of our self-imposed glass box. Mark, that concept of seeing or experiencing life as a game. I'm glad you unwound that and I was tempted to kind of interject and I withheld. I wanted to let you develop that because there again, I start to form my own mechanisms where I'm like, I got to rush ahead. I got to be heard. I've got to interject myself, you know, this construct of self. Let's go right from that point. Is that box not predominantly interrelated and connected to that concept of the psyche in that constructed box that we've built known as a self? Yeah, that is yourself.

Mark Fournier: And I wish I loved this. When you talk to somebody about, yeah, but do you really know who you are? Of course I do. Wait a minute. Let's go back to the oldest philosophy in recorded history, two words, know thyself. And that was Imhotep. He was the high priest of Egypt and put them out on like the pyramids. Eventually it was adopted by Socrates and Plato, and they would put them up on their learning centers and so on. And so the oldest philosophy known, two words, know thyself, and it survived all these thousands of years. Is it possible that it's one of the most brilliant philosophies. Is it possible that a person could live and die without truly knowing who they are? Wow! And if that's true, what kind of power would come with actually knowing who you are? Knowing who you are means, who am I without any judgment? Not, I'm a good person or a bad person, but I'm just a human being with strengths and weaknesses. These are my strengths, and I'm grateful for them. These are my weaknesses. And, oh, some of these I'd kind of like to replace. They don't really serve me. But this is who I am. I'm not perfect. I'm okay. No one's perfect. Wait a minute. And that's okay, too. So I can now spend the rest of my life developing and becoming the person that I wish to be now that I've accepted myself. So I have these four pillars. You, I think, have mastered all four of them. One is know thyself. The second one is accept thyself with your strengths and weaknesses. And of course, you could say, well, is it really a weakness or is that a perception? Yes. know thyself, accept thyself, then be true to thyself. Now that you know who you are and you've accepted that, be true to yourself. And the last one is speak thy truth, which takes the greatest strength. You have to get through these to really speak your truth and be able to do so without regret. Look at the movies. The heroes are the ones who stand up for their belief, even though they know they're going to get the shit kicked out of them. They still say, this is who I am, this is what I believe in, regardless of the consequences. We envy those people, because very few of us are able to do that. But what if you could? What would your life look like? Could that help bring an end to abuse? How many wonderful things could come of that? I'll stop there for a moment and see where you are.

Jeffrey Besecker: I'm going to sit with this. I've kind of already formed a value and opinion on it. I'll transparently admit that. So what if that very box that was once transparent that we call a self and relate to psyche. Now we're building categories, associations, and labels. We're constructing a box that also contains those values and beliefs. And now we're only basing those factors or foundational elements on all of the constructed sticky notes that we've wallpapered the inside of that constructed framework with. And that becomes the only reality we perceive because simply we've labeled the idea that the self is the core foundation, the self is the core belief. And now we've inherently limited our construct of conscious reality. So I'm framing here. I'm building a new perspective and a new construct of how to consider a potential limitless, unlimitless perspective of consideration of that box itself. We accept a reality where we're able to just step outside of that box and on the other side of one of those post-it notes is a different key of reality, a different perspective of reality that did not exist from that belief that it was all what we created inside of that box. Would that be something we would be willing to consider that would also open us up to a limiting or limitless potential? I'll frame it that way.

Mark Fournier: Yes. And this is actually kind of sets us up to talk about metacognition. Yes.

Jeffrey Besecker: I'm teeing you up, brother. Yes, you are.

Mark Fournier: I appreciate that. Well, nice handoff. So yeah, so metacognition is really, it's the act of reflecting on our own thought process, followed by choosing the thoughts and beliefs that best serve us at any given time. And so it's being able to look inside of the glass box and rather than say, this is reality, say, No, this is just the reality that I've created. And created is, I should almost say that I've accepted. Because most of the notes on that box were given to us by somebody else. By our parents, our teachers, by our peers, by bullies, by the media.

Jeffrey Besecker: Every language, every piece of information we use to communicate was already built and constructed for us. There to me signals one way we can stop and simply consider and reframe our notion of authenticity. Do you have your own language? In the land of Mark, do you speak your own language in some degrees? Maybe. But inherently we find that value of lexicon that's relational. We don't distort that or dilute it or diminish it because we do have to have some common way to identify and relate to things, to associate. So therefore, now our framing of that becomes it's limitless in empowering because in order to have the same way to identify these things, if you call it apples and I call it oranges, sometimes there might be conflict. Yeah. So being able to surrender that and realize that a certain element of social influence and social interaction is inherently potential. Inherently potential just meaning it has value and it has a meaning and it has a purpose. Yes. Taking some of that subjectivity out of it. Now we could take that subjectivity and play with it. forming that metacognition, just like you said, being able to compare the apples and oranges. If you've built the road where you're driving down the road on the right side of the lane, and on the left there's a fruit stand, and this guy has a key to life, whatever that key might be that you need in that moment. If you say, I'm not looking at that road, I've got my blinders on because I don't care what's on that road because I'm in this box I called psyche, and all these post-it notes, they only look at these things. And now you just passed an opportunity for limitlessness. Based on what? That box that you call a self. Because you can't step out of the box you call a self because you put these blinders on. You've built the 70s of willful blindness is what we call it. I'm going to try to interject this here now if I may. So we recently did a blog post. We often have a very subjective view of limiting beliefs, looking at one aspect of willful blindness, where we filter our biases, where we filter our interaction. So looking at the 70s of willful blindness and how we filter our experience. denial, distortion, dissociation, dissonance, dilution, delusion, and disillusion, where we dissolve something. Sometimes you have to dissolve the filter at the other end of the spectrum to see how the MF embarks. I'm going to frame it. I want to be very expletive and try to be forceful, but to see out of the box, sometimes we have to dissolve those sticky notes. Wouldn't it be great if our life was founded more in a reality where those sticky notes dissolve over time and we do have to constantly rewrite them because the effing note is inherently your belief that's holding you back. You're not willing to dissolve it. You're not willing to let it fade into the rain and step across to the other road when right there is the gold nugget of that apple that you're only seeing as your orange over here. Because why? You've created the box and you can't even reach beyond the box to step back and see the perspective. The perspective is the self again. It's a framework, it's a construct, it's a box. We put all of our things we hold into that box, yet if you can't sometimes go to the storage unit and shake the box up and dump some of it out and sweep aside the bullshit and the junk and all of the things, that might limit you or might just simply not give you the sense of being able to value it. Sometimes we have to just reaffirm the value in the stuff in the storage. My wife and I recently cleared out a storage unit we had for 10 years. In 10 years, we kind of rotate. She'd go off and we'd buy stuff. She loves antiquing and I love antiquing with her. We find value in finding those treasures and we'd store them in there, but then we didn't have a purpose to utilize that. We had a projected purpose and it was there. After 10 years, we stepped back and took stock. 1 to 10, 1 to 5, whatever our scale is, they're all adapted, they're all purposeful, we can find meaning in that. We stepped back and said, finally, after 10 years, what truly is serving? We had to step out of that box, we'll call it the self again. We'll call it the psyche all of the post it notes we couldn't see the forest through the trees and we kept running into the trees of these things we didn't really need we didn't really value they didn't serve in any way and we held on to it simply because of that fear that we might miss out on an opportunity. Inherently, it was just all baggage that had no purpose. In the end, I think what we're left with now is we had a sale. We benefited from the junk that didn't serve us anymore and turned it into value. It was sitting there, didn't have any value. So rather than just throwing it away, we turned it into gold. We can do the same thing with our beliefs and our thoughts. We can do the same thing with our emotions. We can do the same thing with our experiences. Repurpose the damn stuff. If it's not serving a value, repurpose it. I'm going completely analytical today and completely metaphoric today. So maybe that will bridge some of my own gaps recently where I'm trying to find these concepts and bring them together. So going back to the 70s of willful blindness, I went on a curve there. Sometimes those curves are essential, sometimes they're not. We all find our point of reference. So, 70s, a willful blindness in finding a way to start and they're by no means comprehensive and by no means do they cover every aspect of life because life is damn complex. So basics, processes, and actions, interactions that we can make purposeful, actionable, and practical. Practical being you practice it. We've taken the word practical and somehow turned it into a value judgment rather than the core meaning. Practical meaning simply to practice something. Practice requires error. Practice requires adaptation. Practice requires iteration. So back to those seven Ds. Denial, avoiding or defending against its existence. Denial becoming often a coping mechanism emotionally. I'm avoiding it or I'm defending against it or denying that it even existed often influences how we form those beliefs. Distortion, just simply not seeing the forest through the trees. Not being able to look at the apples and oranges because we built the box and plastered. So dissociation, where we somehow now step back from that idea of self and be able to either effectively and healthfully consider without that association of self, or sometimes we go the other way and we go so far inward, that's all we're able to see. We're now removed from a reality where we include an outside external world and we're pushing everything out, we're denying it, we're defending it, we're avoiding it, we're denying it, we're deleting it, sometimes to our detriment. So, dissonance, where we deny the facts right in front of us. We willingly avoid the fact that there are apples over there on the left path that might be valuable, because on the right path, we're trying to reinforce a belief about what the orange means. Or the box, again, that was initially transparent, and we've got all the post-its up, and now we're not willing to consider stepping out of the box and just reading the other side or seeing what's in our peripherals. So dilution, we take that information. We've got a valuable piece of advice like mindset matters. We can dilute that down and sometimes not look at all the ways that mindset matters or that you have to sometimes fail to succeed with greater nuance, greater context. And we simply believe, well, I'm just reinforcing the belief now that I have to fail. I'm only looking for the failures because I feel like I have to look for all the failures rather than recognizing the apple of success on my left, on the other road, and on the other path outside of the damn box. So delusion, where we deny there are no apples, there are no oranges, and it's only me. Nobody exists outside of me. that's taking it to extremes. Delusion, just simply denying that an element or aspect of consider a potential of reality is there. And then disillusion, where we allow ourselves to step out of that box, we allow those post-it notes to fade. We just adapt and fluidly consider the next potential, the next opportunity. And we're not limited by those things that inherently tie us down and filter those. That's where I'm going to start. And I'm going to stop and return the floor to you. That's my sermon for the day.

Mark Fournier: It was good. I was immediately thinking. So when I interview you on my podcast, I'm going to ask you about the seventies because I just love.

Jeffrey Besecker: It would break them down at that time. That'd be a great trade-off, to be able to kind of flip the script and then allow that floor to kind of shift its perspective. Right.

Mark Fournier: Every one of these could be a fascinating conversation. So to use one of your metaphors in all of this, I love the storage shed because it's something, whether it's your storage unit or it's your garage or your basement, we all have that place where we just hoard

Jeffrey Besecker: stick things that we don't know what to do with or we're waiting for several places most of us you know right implicit memory explicit memory yeah memory uh procedural memory i even do the point now where there's so many of them that yes it sometimes can dilute your ability to make a good choice and you simply just go back like learning to play an instrument and practice again till you learn that theory or that principle Practicality comes from practice. Practice is iterating, adapting and evolving those processes. You know, you most of the time, you know, there are a few exceptions. Most people don't pick up an instrument and have a masterful knowing that. And even if they did, there's another influence that a lot of times allows that to happen. You know, I can point out to two specifically where some of those factors then become the anomaly or the exception. Mozart and Prince. Okay, I love that you said them both in the same sentence, yeah. It's hard to break down where their core instances of je ne sais quoi, their certain genius, so to speak, came from and how. And there again, you know, it's kind of symbolic of natural progression, how we can watch, you know, species and evolutions of consciousness and how there's always those anomalies that are just simply an exception. And you embrace it with gratitude and humility, especially intellectual humility, where you can just look at it and say, well, rather than form the defensive wall that makes me feel diminutive and subjectively belittled in the fact that they have embraced their genius, get out of your own damn box again, because that's where it's happening is in that box of self. The box, sometimes it's plastered over and blinded. And sometimes that box where you store all that other stuff that's not serving you in your optimal way. Your best self often is clouded up with a bunch of non-best stuff. Let's make it very, very subjective and very kind of decontextualized in that regard. until you're willing to step out of that box and just look at the exam with feedback. And sometimes the best thing on both of those individuals, although they were very somewhat neurotic in their approaches and very enigmatic in their characteristics, they both were very generous about giving that information away to others and saying, if you're open to the feedback, can I share a question with you here, Mark, and also share a nugget of wisdom with you?

Mark Fournier: Yes, you may.

Jeffrey Besecker: I don't have it, but I'm just setting the framework by being open to that example. Now you're available to anything that might come after that. Yeah. So sometimes Mark, if we simply step out of that transparent box that we've plastered over with various beliefs, sometimes those beliefs are beneficial. Sometimes they're not. Sometimes they're healthy. Sometimes they're unhealthy. Sometimes they're adverse. Sometimes they're beneficial. When we're able to flip those cards and see what hand we're being dealt or what hand we choose to reshuffle and simply play another hand, we might form a bigger perspective. Just by simply being able to step away from that idea that the self is nothing more than a box we're always building, remodeling, adapting, Like our homes, sometimes we like to redecorate, sometimes we like to bring in, I found this new thing that is valuable and meaningful to me, and we put it on the walls. We might go a course of years and suddenly say, that thing's been hanging on the wall for years and I don't know why we ever bought it, but I see this new thing. Let's now throw that up on the wall. Sometimes that old thing, what do we do? We deal it off, we throw it away. Sometimes we sell it for value to somebody else. It's that simple. That would be my nugget. If I were to be my Mozart moment, or my Prince moment, or my moment of sharing something that I perceive to be, sounds kind of less than humble, a form of genius. Just simply a form of knowing, practice, and mastery. Just step out of the box sometimes. Look around, see what you see. Be open, be receptive, listen. Yeah, let the limit dissolve.

Mark Fournier: So I love it, love it, everything you're saying.

Jeffrey Besecker: I'm completely off script today, pretty much just referencing some notes. I love that we've free-formed this one today.

Mark Fournier: Oh yeah, I have a feeling that we could squeeze in dozens of interviews.

Jeffrey Besecker: How long have we been going here? About an hour and a half?

Mark Fournier: Oh, I think we kind of just chatted it up for the first hour or so.

Jeffrey Besecker: Are we losing anybody? Do we need to cover anything else or have we made valid points today? Let's subjectively assess this.

Mark Fournier: Well, I would love to respond to a couple of the things that you've asked. Awesome. So follow your lead. Okay. Well, you've triggered a couple of thoughts that I think I can reinforce. Step out of your glass box. Of course, I think I wrote the whole glass box concept, which by the way, I even did a video probably 20 years ago called The Glass Box. So my YouTube has Mark Fournier Presents.

Jeffrey Besecker: Awesome. Let's put that in the notes and look it up.

Mark Fournier: Yeah, they could do the glass box. There's a 16 minute version that kind of explains this concept. But when you talk about dissolving the sticky note, so I just to keep the metaphor literal, I say, peel it off. So peel off the sticky note. And what does that do? What's the term for that? That goes back to the question everything. So when you say step out of the box, I found to step out of the entire box, that would be to step out of every aspect of your reality. I don't know anybody who's capable of it, I sure am not. But what we can do is we can step out of portions, areas, at a time. It takes time because it's taken your whole life to populate inside of that box. So to just step out, well that would be to have a psychotic break, is what stepping out of the entire box would look like. There'd be no reference to reality and we'd basically put you in a nut house.

Jeffrey Besecker: That's interesting to look at. I'm going to play with that just a second. I can't remember which segment of the brain that they worked with on the experimentations with managing seizures. I think it might have been the insular cortex. Whatever it was, it separates our two hemispheres. Now I'm losing it so I don't have the context and it's a little bit diluted. Inherently, where there are certain aspects where we can sever or dissolve portions of that personality and we still have complete functionality in it, doesn't necessarily construct a complete psychological break. there's always or sometimes often, sometimes often might be a more accurate framing, a different way to view some of those things and we catch ourselves where we might be limited in the data or the context that we're utilizing.

Mark Fournier: Therein lies the potential for creating a better life is in accepting that that there are an infinite number of ways, which are limitless, an infinite number of ways that we can view anything. Of course, not to get too literal, the idea being to say with this question everything. I love that phrase because it's practical. It's something people can practice. If you say, step out of your box, they'll go, I don't know what that means. I don't know how to do that. But if you say, take every single thing that you, every story, a story simply being something you tell yourself, and every belief, take each one of them one at a time and ask, Is it possible that I could be wrong? And by questioning each one of them one at a time, this is something a human being can do. That's simple enough. I'm going to question this belief, whether it's a belief that was handed down to you by your parents or someone else, or a lot of those sticky notes were put up there when you were 5, 10, 14, and you're still living as though that's an absolute. Not questioning, yeah, but my perception of life at the age of 12 or 7 wasn't accurate. It wasn't all-inclusive. It was different than what it is now. I need to go back and question, is it true that all people like this, people, you know, If your stepdad had a beard and he was mean, the people with beards are angry and they're mean. Is it possible that I could be wrong about so many of these things? And so in the act of questioning every single belief that you have with an open mind comes the potential for, as you say, stepping out of the box. It's incremental. And it takes time. But what if you made that a part of your daily pattern? Was, I will begin to question everything from this point forth. My political beliefs, religious beliefs. I don't care whatever they are. Some of them are taboo. I'm careful when I stand on that stage. I say, I was called to a podium, not a pulpit. We won't talk about religion, but I would tell you that I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't question the religious constructs that were handed down to me from my family if I didn't question them. I was fortunate. My mom questioned everything herself. And so although she was raised as a Southern Baptist, hardcore fire and brimstone, She started questioning that by the time she had crossed over. She had read, I mean, you name the philosophy, the religious texts, whatever. She had read everything she could get her hands on it. At the age of 16, she handed me the Bible my grandmother had given me when I was younger and said, read it. I said, well, I've read it in Sunday school, you know, with grandma at grandma's church. She goes, no, read it like you were walking along a deserted beach and you just picked up a book. You don't know that it's real, that it's fake, it could be fiction. Pick it up and read the entire thing from end to end and ask yourself, which of these stories, these ideas make sense to you? Which ones don't? And oh, by the way, and she was really adamant about this, she said, any organization, any belief system structure, or religion, anyone who says, don't question this, she said, run. Run as fast as you can, because if they don't want you questioning it, there's something that doesn't really make sense there. They should save, which as a coach, I tell my clients, bring it, bring it. Question everything I say. Debate with me. If I say something that you don't buy or you don't believe or you don't understand, come at me. Because if, oh, by the way, I did this even with my kids. I never ever said because I said so. I'd say, you can debate with me all you like, be kind, be respectful and kind, but question it. Because I didn't want to raise a bunch of mindless drones who just did what they were told to do. I wanted to have the kind of kids who would stand up in class and ask the teacher, well, yeah, but do you have any proof of this? Do you have any examples you could give me? Because I don't know that this is a truth for me. And I've raised those kind of kids, by the way. And my daughter, in fact, bragging because it just happened a couple of days ago, just got her master's degree from Northwestern, where she won the literary award for the best thesis written in her entire graduating class. There must be, I don't know, there are 1,400 others graduating with her in that. And she won the award for this. And it's because her thesis questioned everything about fantasy, fairy tale, Cinderella, Snow White, Seven Dwarfs, all of those. She was questioning, does art imitate life or does life imitate art? I want to talk to her.

Jeffrey Besecker: It was a fascinating teaching technique.

Mark Fournier: That sounds amazing. So instead of accepting fairy tales as what they were, she said, no, these were actually political agenda. They use these things to manipulate, to promote misogyny, all sorts of things. I'm just like, wow. Wow, that was interesting. So you can teach this to others as well. But the idea being, if you did nothing, if your only takeaway from this entire call was question everything, because those things that are inside of your box, your beliefs and your stories and so on, these are forming your reality and your realities determining your experience, the level of quality in your life. And if I were to separate the difference between what is being taught by most training institutions and so on, is we hear the word empowerment. And it's great to be empowered. Empowerment is the ability to have an influence on the world around us. And the more empowered you are, the more influential you can be, which means you can have a bigger impact, but you can also create a more interesting life and a more interesting world. But there's something way more powerful, and that's enlightenment. Enlightenment is the ability to influence the world within. Well, we can not only influence it, but we can practically control that one. can't control the world around me. I mean, you know, it's going to be 95 degrees today and 100% humidity. If I could control the world around me, that wouldn't be happening.

Jeffrey Besecker: You can influence your way into some cool though.

Mark Fournier: Yes, indeed. And I can decide, you know, I'm not going to play pickleball today. I'm going to hang out in the house and I'm going to get some things done that I've been putting off because I wanted to get outside and play. And so I can still have a wonderful day by influencing the world and saying to myself, I don't need to go anywhere today. I can stay inside. And so this is really what we're talking about is becoming an enlightened being. And I can't help but wonder if after something you suggest is first you have to desire it. You have to desire to grow. You've got to have a growth mindset of some kind or you're just going to be your whole life will be about nothing but reinforcing those notes. And that's a huge percentage of the planet is reinforce it, prove that I'm right, tell everyone else that I'm right, get them to agree with me. Okay, that feels good. But those individuals who say, I know there's more, I know there's more. It's not using your blinders analogy. We see the things, the challenges that get in our way of life, and we see them as roadblocks. Oh, so I guess I can't do that. No, they're not roadblocks, they're detours. That's the universe saying, you pick one specific outcome out of an infinite number of possibilities as if you have the ear of God and you know the number one best possible outcome. Well, that's ludicrous, right? There's an infinite number. A detour says, that's one. Now I want you to look around. There's a lot of other places you could go, ways to get there, a lot of other possible outcomes. So going back to questioning everything, once the desire to take greater control of your life experience is there, the first step is, well, you need to start questioning your beliefs and your stories and your limiting beliefs and your mindsets, those lenses. start questioning which ones serve us and which ones don't, and you'll be amazed at the insights that you'll gain. And that's when you start to go, this one doesn't make sense anymore, I'm throwing that away. And I'll either put nothing in its place and get a glimpse from time to time of the universe, the reality as it truly is, without any interpretation, or at the very least, my version of reality will serve me better than the one that just It happened, you know, haphazardly happened along because I accepted all the constructs that everybody else was sharing. Now I'm going to create my own. And there's limitless potential in that.

Jeffrey Besecker: Mark, if I might, can I share a moment here? And, you know, this has been such an informative, unique opportunity to gain valuable feedback on life in general, from my perspective. If I might, could I share some key practices and takeaways that I am going to take away from this? Oh, I think that'd be wonderful. Again, practicality is rooted in practice. What can we practice to develop the core habits, traits, characteristics and skills that will build us an optimal life? That's my overall kind of overview. So you mentioned that practice of questioning, a practice I also received in my upbringing. I know that's often an exception. often is not that framework in place. And quite the opposite happens where we're reinforced with that belief. Do as I say, don't question, which can become very triggering, very embedded, traumatically. We'll dissect that at another date. So simply developing that skill and trait of practicing the ability to question things.

Mark Fournier: Oh, may I just interject? And we're not just talking about questioning the opinions of others. The harder thing is questioning your own opinion. Yes. That's the trick. Because that's where the hubris lies is saying, well, of course, what I believe is true. I'm not sure that what you believe is true. Well, wait a minute. What if you're wrong? What if you have beliefs that are limiting you in so many ways, beliefs that cause you pain and suffering on so many levels? What if those aren't true? So questioning ourself is the biggest and the most important aspect of this process.

Jeffrey Besecker: That's such a great nugget. If I were to expand on that, and my key takeaway again, my practice in questioning it, what did I gain and earn from this? So just from that response, I'm going back to what you've reinforced today. Not only questioning, but writing down. What is it that I believe about this? What am I putting on that sticky note on the note? Because we're very realistically now taking action to dictate and influence that process. We might not necessarily be controlling all of the outcomes, but we're influencing what comes of that process of writing it down. So that's key. Why am I questioning this value or belief? Start there, from my perspective. Why is this serving me? Is this not to have this? Being a core practice becomes very practical in its application now. Just simply, X, Y, and Z. Why am I doing this? Why do I have this belief? What value does this have in my life? That's my takeaway. the practice of writing that down. An additional practice then for me becomes being willing to question why I arrived at that answer and ask an additional question. If someone asks a question of us, going back to that practice we learn as coaches, most of the time to engage that Socratic questioning. Socrates was notorious for when he was asked a question, rather than rushing to that value and decision to answer and respond, Socrates had the wisdom and the genius and understanding and the depth of processing to step back and say, why are we questioning the value? What is the purpose of it? what's our intent? So sometimes asking an additional question rather than seeking the answers for me then becomes a practical practice, exercise, action, and habit, framing it and where those categories of values are. How would you respond to that? What might you add?

Mark Fournier: Well, yeah, obviously the Socratic method is not just effective for law students. And when we question, why are we even questioning it, that again goes back to metacognition and goes back to questioning everything, including my thoughts, including my thought process, asking what is my real purpose for this? It's kind of like getting a backstage pass. and being able to figure out how you think and why you believe the things you do. And there are some things that I might not question. Remember, this ultimately is going to come down to improving the quality of your life. Otherwise, why would we do any of it? If it's just so we know what's right or wrong, that's an intellectual pursuit. But ideally, there's more to it. Somehow those answers will impact my life or the lives around me. And so being able to say, I want to improve the quality of my life and that around me, perhaps the whole world, whatever your level of humor is. So being able to ask, how does this serve me? Does this particular belief serve me and those around me? Sometimes the answer is, yeah. I give it a 10. I'm so happy about this thing, right? Like I believe right now that pickleball is the greatest fitness exercise I've ever done. I mean, it's social, it's mental, it's physical. And I've had 19 surgeries. Most of them were from orthopedic. Most of them were sports injuries. So it's like something I can still do without worrying about breaking my neck again. So right now the belief that pickleball is really good for me, it serves me. It's keeping me fit and healthy and it keeps me happy. So even though I back up to a golf course, well, that's $130 every time you grab your club. Pickleball's free. Oh, hey, better still. So I don't look for evidence or information either disagreeing with pickleball, if anything. I look for evidence that fortifies this belief because it's serving me. But how many things don't? So that may be a part of the process is, where in my life is there pain and suffering? or in the lives of those around me, where are there areas that could be improved upon? And at that point, that's the best starting point is let's start questioning the things that cause you the greatest form of stress, emotional, physical, or whatever it might be. And that'll keep you busy for a while. Just questioning the stuff that gets us into trouble.

Jeffrey Besecker: So, something came to mind here, and I think it bears importance and significance to recognize. So, taking that concept of questioning everything, we can all observe, or sometimes when it's brought to our awareness and pointed out, can observe where that active practice of emotional rumination becomes an active practice that's often included and driven by questioning. Forming that differentiation to me becomes essential in our conversation. Differentiating when that questioning becomes impulsively or habitually driven by emotion itself. Being able to identify that becomes crucial in my mind. How did you respond to that?

Mark Fournier: Well, I love this emotional rumination.

Jeffrey Besecker: That's… I call it overthinking, yet we're not really practicing or exercising practical

Mark Fournier: right okay so yeah so i'm here very judicious yeah and this may be helpful let's separate just cognition just the the uh just the uh the science of thought of prefrontal cortex okay let's separate that from the whole basal ganglia emotion and recognize that most of the time, yes, I'm sure that there are a few exceptions, but it's easier to teach in generalities. Most of the time, whatever that emotional response is, it's based on some thought first. It's first driven by the thought, the thought that I'm not getting enough. This isn't fair. That's not okay. That's not right. Something is causing me to feel either good or bad, poorly. And so by allowing the emotion to decide what we question, it's much less likely that it will be with the purpose of making our lives better. It could be driven by any number of things. So what I would do is put a step in there. I'd identify the notion, the emotion. I would then ask, now what thought or belief is causing me to feel this way? And right off the bat, this is the thing you question is, If the emotion is a positive one and it's something I enjoy, and I can say, okay, so these are the thoughts and beliefs that are causing that, I might decide not to question them. By the same token, I might say, okay, so I don't like the way I'm feeling, and this is what makes me feel that way is when I think this thought, like, you know, you're always late for our meetings because you don't respect me. And so I'm going to question that. Am I absolutely certain? Is it possible that I'm not wrong or that I'm wrong? And that's not why you're consistently late. We could just say, I've watched the clock. So we'll say that's based on a fact. And I say there are very few facts that make it all the way to our consciousness. Usually it's gone through a filter and we have somehow interpreted it. But if you're supposed to meet them at noon every single day for a month, and they've never once gotten there at noon, okay, you can go, well, all right, so I have kind of a fact here. So being able to say, I'm going to question that, and I'm going to, one, maybe I'll ask the person what's going on, but I can also create a few possible scenarios. And I did this, by the way, this exact same thing, because I have a few friends who are chronically late for everything. And yet I'm always wanting to hang out with them. I like to be with them. And I realized there was a pattern. I love to be around optimists. Very positive, optimistic people. Guess what? Most people who are chronically late are positive and optimistic. You know why it causes them to be late? It's, hey, I'm going to be there at noon and I can stop and get the dry cleaning and pick up the kids and do some grocery shopping in between. Oh, yeah, I've gotten there in 13 minutes. Of course, it was it was three in the morning on a Sunday. So I saw traffic. You know, it's only a 13 minute drive and I can squeeze these things in. So they show up late. But they mean well, and they were doing it all for these positive, optimistic reasons. So now I can decide, okay, so this person is chronically late, but it's not because they don't respect me. I feel so much better. It's because they're an optimist. So you know what I'll do is I'll just tell them, you give me a call when you're on your way, and I'll go ahead and take off and I'll meet you there. Or maybe I just won't meet with them any longer. My younger brother, we used to have these great football tickets and I'd invite him to come and we'd wait for him and he'd show up three hours late. We missed the game. So I started saying, you know what, I'm just going to leave your tickets under the floor mat. at the front doormat and I'll see you there when you get there. But I am never playing tennis with you again. This was back when you'd play single tennis because when you don't show up and I'm just standing there by myself, well that's not fun. So I make different choices but none of them made me feel badly because I realized he wasn't late because of In this case, he was late because he literally had no systems in place for remembering anything. He'd been bragging about how he's taken a girl to see Les Mis, and it was a traveling Broadway show. He was so excited, this new girl, and he was gonna impress the hell out of her. Three days later, I call him, I said, so how did it go? How'd what go? Your date, Les Mis. And he goes, shit. He completely forgotten. He stood her up. He blew off like $500 worth of tickets and blew her off. And then I knew because I used to say, well, if I was the president, you wouldn't be late. Yeah, he would. And now I'm not taking it personally anymore. That felt so much better. I didn't change the world around me. I didn't make him suddenly start being on time. I just changed how it affected me from feeling angry and upset and resentful because he didn't respect me to feeling like, you know what? He just doesn't have this system in place. He has a terrible memory. He's got mega ADHD. And he would have forgotten no matter who it was. It's not personal. Oh, that felt so much better. So there's a kind of an example of how this can be applied. And you get to decide which things you want to question and so on. I don't know if I answered your question or not. My answer is so low.

Jeffrey Besecker: In that, we'll find our answers and that's so often what we do is kind of find our associations that are connecting points. There again, I think it's essential that we pointed out in some of our prior conversations that active personalization and healthy depersonalization. You know, there's a fine line there, like so many things. Sometimes it's healthy, sometimes it's unhealthy. It becomes unhealthy totally when we totally depersonalize and dissociate. You know, I'm not now taking responsibility for my own actions. being an example of that. Because I'm avoiding this thing or because I'm defending against this emotional response, I'm now not taking that instance of humility and taking responsibility and consideration for how that also influences somebody else. But there again, you know, finding that healthy depersonalization where we aren't overly associating it with how we identify with ourselves and our constructs of self, our beliefs, our values, our patterns of emotion, our experiences, We can take those instances of experiences and because somebody had a different experience now we're discounting what their experience was now we're downplaying it now we're subjectively whether we're consciously aware of it sometimes belittling realizing where it has become belittling becomes emotional intelligence now i may not have intended to be hurtful, but it has been hurtful. Am I now aware of how it has been hurtful to you? You have to take yourself out of that equation in a healthy way sometimes because now I'm not offended that you were hurt. Now I'm just open and empathetic. I'm available to hear how you were hurt. Please tell me why you were hurt. I would like to hear your perspective. I'd like to feel what you feel from your filter or your lens.

Mark Fournier: Oh my gosh, and there you go. You are now soliciting. What you just did was you asked somebody if they would invite you into their glass box and give you a tour. Anytime we ask people questions, how do you feel? Why do you feel that way? What are your thoughts about that? Well, what do you think of this? And how do you feel about that? Look, stand them. Now they may or may not want you as a coach. My job is to help them peel off some of those notes and replace them or peel them off and leave them that way. But the average conversation is just, This is my version. That's your version. And thank you for the tour. Thanks for helping me see the world through your lens more clearly because communication, of course, is priceless, right? And that gives us so much more, so much more information. And remember this. It's a statement that will serve anyone listening well. All feedback is constructive. All feedback is good. Positive feedback or negative or constructive feedback. What if all feedback is valuable, even the feedback you didn't want? So think of it this way. All of our senses, sight, hear, smell, touch, All of our senses are designed for one primary objective. It's not for pleasure, that came later in our evolution, but it's designed for one main function, and that is to help us navigate through the world, to help us find food, to help us find shelter, to help us avoid being eaten. All sorts of positive things come from these senses. And we are raised to want only positive experiences, to want our senses to only see beauty and taste something delicious and so on and so forth. So we're always looking for what we call positive experiences through our senses. But if you can abandon that concept and say, no, it's all good. It's all constructive. Then you realize I'm walking the hunter-gatherer days. I'm walking out looking for berries. And I stumble across a mother grizzly bear and her cubs. And she chases me. And I escape. And believe me, that feedback felt very negative at the time. It was really scary and I almost got eaten, but thank God for that feedback, even though it's not the feedback I wanted, because I'm not going down that path again. In fact, I'm going to tell everybody else in my tribe, don't go down that path. There's a mother grizzly with her cubs. Stay away from that. So if we can stop allowing our ego to step in there and say, well, you're telling me whether I'm okay or not, but rather, no, you're telling me how to be more okay. Even if you say to me, I don't like when you make fun of my weight. Okay. And they say it in front of everybody and you can feel embarrassed. Well, if you're past the idea that I'm here, my only purpose is to get validation from you, but rather my purpose is to grow and to learn and become a better human being in every way that I can, then I'm going to thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I can be totally transparent. You know what I, my intention was not to hurt you. And I can see now where that could have come across as being very insensitive because I've never dealt with my weight. It's never been an issue for me and I want to change that. Boy, that's the people we love. We don't love the people who never say or do anything wrong because they don't exist. We love the ones who say, you know what, I can do better. And thank you for helping me see the possibilities. So that comes from that same place of questioning everything, including what did I do and why did I do it? What were my motives? And if my motive wasn't to hurt you, then why did I say that? Now, maybe it won't come out of my mouth the next time because I am involved in metacognition. I'm thinking about the things I'm about to say before I say them. And I'm asking the question, what's my purpose for saying this and will this serve us? Boy, so many times you'll go, no, it's not going to serve. That's just my ego just wanting to prove how smart I am, but it's going to make them feel stupid. So have I really accomplished? My ultimate goal is to create a better relationship. And you don't do that by making somebody feel worse. so you can feel better. So boom, I'm going to talk about what I appreciate about them and not look for ways to impress them with my own special abilities because in the end, they want the same thing I want. They want to be validated too. You make your whole life about looking for ways to validate others and appreciate them and you're going to have a lot of great relationships. Of course, you've got to be honest and sincere. You can't say things you don't really mean. But we're all looking for that, and I know I'm digressing, so I'm going to throw it back to you.

Jeffrey Besecker: I want to thank you. I feel we've shared so many nuggets of wisdom today. We've shared a lot of insight about how we can take this theory of adaptability, how we can take that theory of considering different perspectives, different lenses, different belief systems, and forming beneficial action and practice of them. framing it from that perspective of adaptability mark. As we kind of wrap up here today, if you were to offer three tips that allow us to transcend our own adapted and adopted perspective and become open and vulnerable to a new perspective, no matter what that source is. I've set a lot of precedents with where I'm going with this and framing it. Maybe prompting a little bit, but if we were to take those values, are there three core practices, actions, habits, or tips that we can adapt and utilize for our own growth and change?

Mark Fournier: Let's see if I can draw on some of the things we've already spoken of, since there's already a backstory, make it a little easier to apply, to remember and apply. So the first thing is, it's got to begin with accepting that we're not perfect. We never will be. We're just doing the best we can to be the best we can be, to make the most of our lives. And probably anyone listening to this show has already accepted that, already owns that. But you've got to start with this growth mindset concept, with the idea that it's not about how I'm perceived, it's not even about what I do, it's about who I am being, and the goal of being as enlightened as possible. So, once again, that lens, being able to identify the lenses that serve us and those that don't, the beliefs and stories. And so, for starters, it's making the decision to be better more important than the decision to look better, to be right, and so on. Of course, we've all heard that, would you rather be happy or would you rather be right? Well, in this case, would you rather love your life or just have people envy it? Because, you know, that's what Facebook does. It makes them all into your life. But yeah, but are you really that happy? And of course, the answer is universally no, but it sure looks good on my Facebook page. So being able to accept that there's a limitless number of possibilities out there for us and that we can all be happier. more fulfilled and lead more meaningful lives. And so starting with that one, the second question is, OK, and how do I go about that? Pushing on this question everything principle is accepting you're not perfect, but you can certainly be better. And why not? I think that as we're questioning everything, one of the big things that we step into is accepting that once your basic needs are met, your food, shelter, water and oxygen, what's left? Because if you certainly live in America, most of those needs are pretty well met. Even if you're living from paycheck to paycheck, you're living. So I'm still here, so probably food, shelter, water, and oxygen have been met. At that point, we say, so what's the point? Because I have clients do that all the time. I teach a thing called passionate detachment. Well, then the rest of it's kind of a game. It's like, all right, so my basic needs are met, then What can I do with the rest of my life? What game can I play to have the most amazing, remarkable, exciting, incredible, regret-free life anybody could hope for? A life where I could go, now that was worth living. If I stood in line for a million years to have a chance to come to Earth, I definitely definitely made the most of my time here on this planet in whatever that looks like to you. And so, you know, being able to get to that place where I know that there's a better life out there for me, a limitless life of possibility, and I'm just going to play the game to the best of my ability and enjoy every moment of it. knowing that not all games are always fun all the time. I mean, if you think about it, I mean, even like if I'm playing pickleball, it's usually three hours. And by the time I'm done, I'm limping off the courts and screaming for celebrex or something. And I'm going to wake up sore. So why do I do that to myself? Because it's fun. even though it's not always fun all the time, that's okay. So what will you do with this game of life? How will you play it on the most rewarding levels possible? And questioning everything is like asking, you know, what's the best way to hold the paddle? What are the best strategies so I can play the game with greater skill and so on, so I can enjoy the game more? And then there is always coming back to the loving what is. And in the process of this is where I am, this is where I'd like to be, and I may never get there. So if I can't find something of value in the middle, then it's always going to be about living for a future that may never come about. So loving what is is coming back to, and that's Byron Katie's book, in fact, which is fabulous in that regard. And that's all right. And so what I'm going to do is love the game. I can't control the outcome. I can't control whether we win the game or lose the game. All I know is that I am going to love every moment of this game to the best of my ability. So whatever comes along, I'll stop looking at challenges as problems. I'll start looking at them as nothing more than unexpected outcomes. So okay, I didn't expect it to be that way. So there's a detour. I'm going to take off the blinders. I'm going to look around for other possible ways. And so in this whole process, it is coming back to cliché. I love clichés. They've been around for thousands of years for a reason. So the old cliché of it's about the journey. So it's a simple thing. You've heard it a thousand times, but do you live it? Or do you sit around all day long complaining or resenting the challenges and things that come your way? Well, that's not loving the journey. Loving the journey is saying, yeah, in some journeys, I'll finish with this, bring it full circle. And sometimes I choose the road less traveled by. Sometimes that road is a lot more difficult, but there's a reason why people who take that road die without regrets. They go, you know what? It was the road less traveled by, but therein, and that has made all the difference.

Jeffrey Besecker: Thank you. Thank you for so valuably and so insightfully reinforcing that need to simply embrace the ride and find the value in the practice. That's my key takeaways today. So thank you, Mark. This truly has been such an awesome conversation as always. And I would love to have you back anytime. Please come share your wisdom with us again.

Mark Fournier: Oh, my pleasure. We'll send topics to you on a regular basis. And whenever one seems to be in alignment with your current lens, you let us know and we'll look forward to having you on our show once we get that launched in the fall. So.

Jeffrey Besecker: Maybe that's a good opportunity to look at where we allow our lens or our filters to be guided productively by outside feedback rather than being so subjective about it. That might be a fun one to look at. So often we project that perceived alignment to the point that we miss the opportunity to be guided to that alignment. That might be a fun one to look at.

Mark Fournier: I love it. I love it. Every choice, just remember this. Every choice we make is usually in place of a different choice. And every goal doubles as a limitation. You say, I'm going to double my sales. So you've limited yourself to only doubling your sales as opposed to 10xing them.

Jeffrey Besecker: That's such a great point to close with today, Mark. Thank you for also bringing us into that awareness where sometimes our limits aren't inherently obvious to us. Yeah, well said. I want to give you an opportunity here. If our listening community desires to reach out to you or find out more about your programs or look for that viable pathway of coaching with you, you are such a great mentor and you have such a kind-hearted, insightful way of thoughtfully engaging with others. Where might they reach out to you?

Mark Fournier: Thank you for asking for that. And the answer is simple enough. Of course, the website for my specifically for coaching, but there's other links in there that will take you along on the path. And that is the website is TheLimitlessCoach.com. That makes it simple. TheLimitlessCoach.com. If you just want to just see this particular podcast on any other platform, of course, we'll are eager to share this story on all of our different platforms. The best way is Mark Fournier Presents. That's spelled F-O-U-R-N-I-E-R. So Mark Fournier Presents on the internet will get you to all sorts of information material and just a direct email to my name which is Mark at Fournier Inc. and I will get back to you. One way or another, we make sure we respond to everyone. Awesome.

Jeffrey Besecker: Reach out to Mark. Seek out those resources we mentioned earlier in the podcast. Such a valuable step to go through that process of just simply questioning where some of those values lie in your life. So make way to those and utilize those. Every bit of information is a potential. Let's embrace that idea and habit of just simply considering it. Thank you so much. I have gained so much value myself from this interaction. Every time we talk, I can just feel not only that inspiration and energy growing, but can also gain some valuable nugget to take away and apply to my own practices, values, and habits throughout life. So I'm going to frame those again, re-force those practice, value, and habit aspects of our conversation today. So thank you. Please come back again.

Mark Fournier: It will be my honor and my privilege, and thank you. I think I've enjoyed this conversation as much as you have. Quite sure of it as a fact.

Jeffrey Besecker: Thank you, Jeffrey. Namaste. The light in me acknowledges all the light in you. In this episode, we explored how adapting our belief systems fundamentally boils down to one core practice. Question everything. This principle encourages us to continuously assess our thoughts, behaviors, and assumptions, fostering growth and resilience. Consider the story of renowned scientist Marie Curie, who broke the glass ceiling by revolutionizing our understanding of radioactivity. Curie's relentless questioning of established scientific beliefs led to groundbreaking discoveries despite facing numerous challenges and skepticism. Her journey exemplifies the power of questioning to drive innovation and change. As we navigate our paths, let's embrace the practice of questioning everything with intellectual humility and kind curiosity. By doing so, we open ourselves to new perspectives, deeper understanding, and the potential to transform our lives and the world around us. If you found value and meaning in this series with Mark, please share it with a friend or loved one. And as always, we're grateful for you, our valued and beloved listening community. This has been the Light Inside. I'm Jeffrey Besecker.