Active Listening - Connecting with the Person Inside with Jonathan Miller

00:00 Jeffrey Besecker This is The Light Inside. I'm Jeffrey Besecker. Active

Listening. In an ever-changing world, there has never been a more crucial time to connect with another as our social interactions grow increasingly polarized. In profound ways, our words shape our reality. When we form more connected and open relationships, the power of our communication is essential. The more we become aware of those around us, the more we move beyond conflict and the constructs of an underdeveloped ego. The better we not only hear others, we also see more of the person inside. In this episode, we discover the power of showing compassion, consideration, and thoughtfulness in how this increases authentic ties that bind us together as one. Join us as we share this conversation with professional communication coach, Jonathan Miller. Communicating effectively takes a little work, yet we become more empowered and embodied communicators simply by being more mindful and building more engaging relationships. Tune in to find out how active listening is the key when we return to The Light Inside. We'd like to offer a shout out to our affiliate matching partner, PodMatch.com. PodMatch is the revolutionary podcasting matching system driven by AI. As an industry leader in podcast guesting and hosting, they are a go-to solution for creating meaningful podcast interactions. PodMatch.com makes finding the ideal guest or host effortless. Stop by and visit our affiliate link today at www.thelightinside.us. Joining us for this powerful and thought-provoking discussion is Jonathan Miller of Mindful Communications. Hello, Jonathan, and thank you for joining us. Hello. So I'm excited for this. This is going to be a fun conversation and I'm interested in jumping into this. What are you most excited about? I am interested in looking at first and foremost, that level of how we communicate with each other, effectively dealing with differences in communication and then ultimately looking at that angle so often that I think is missed in that equation is the act of global listening

02:41 ** and the role that plays in communication. I can tell you're a coach, global listening. That's a very coach term. Yeah. Yeah, I love that you're into this as well because I think communication is one of those things that really do as you kind of improve it for yourself. The impact of it on the quality of your life is significant and then the quality of the other people's lives is just as significant. It's really incredible. So I'm glad that you're just as excited about this topic as I am.

03:11 Jeffrey Besecker Jonathan, you often share how mindfulness is important throughout all areas of communication. Could you start off today by sharing with us why this is so important when communicating

03:22 ** with others? You know, the idea behind mindful communication is really just bringing communication into our conscious awareness because for the most part, our communication is completely unconscious and unintentional. And so that's all it is. It's just, we're just communicating and there's not a problem with how we're communicating right now, the vast majority of us, including myself. There's no problem. It's just how we're communicating. And when we become more mindful of it, there's something awesome that opens up on the other end.

03:57 Jeffrey Besecker And that's what I'm about. Let's start off by looking at A, why communication is so important in our relationships and then

04:05 ** B, what is mindful communication? So starting with A, why is communication so important in our relationships? I mean, I would put it out there that our relationships wouldn't be if we didn't have communication. Communication is the tool that connects us. Ultimately, it's the thing that binds us in those relationships and relationships make up the quality of our life. You would be a fool to think you can get far in life without relationships period. Only a fool would think that. I mean, I'm a firm believer in that the quality of a relationship is the biggest determinant of the quality of our lives. So if relationships are that important, you want to make sure to put those on a pedestal and take on any technique and tool like communication skills to make them as amazing as possible. That's kind of why communication is important relationships.

05:01 Jeffrey Besecker Any thoughts on that? That beauty of that to me is that interconnectedness we all share. How do we exist together? How do we coexist together?

05:11 ** And how do we interact with each other? And those words have a massive impact, right? I'm a firm believer that words shape our reality, really. Try on this perspective. This is a crazy perspective that I have and you can try it on if you'd like. Yes. Yes. Is that we as humans don't have access to the world as an objective reality. We cannot access it. Our access to it is through our language. And so ultimately our language shapes what is possible in our worlds. And so, yeah, I think it is of utmost importance and is at the forefront of I think everything that we do.

05:51 Jeffrey Besecker I love that idea you shared into your point of objective reality. From my perspective, we each exist within one microcosm of reality, one view of the world as it is. And that view is filtered predominantly by our perception of it, how we engage with it, how we intend to interact with it. You know, looking at that, sorry for the pause. I was pondering that for a minute myself. Looking at that, how do we in our interactions hold space for others to allow their reality

06:31 ** to connect? I love that. I love your pauses.

06:35 Jonathan Miller Please continue. If I had a short answer for you, I think the world would be a much less turbulent place. Hmm.

06:47 ** That is, I really think it starts actually with a desire to want to accept that that is the reality of the situation. It's maybe acknowledging that we as human beings have erratically different perspectives. That's just what's so. And just acknowledging that helps already put us in a spot where we can acknowledge

07:12 Jeffrey Besecker that I do not have the truth with a capital T. That is a concept that none of us can access. We have our truths. And most conflicts that you're going to talk a lot about are just simply two truths colliding and reconciling with those two. That's such a powerful thought for me today that it's merely acting from our truth. To me, that speaks to acting from the ego. What role do you feel the ego plays in that process of effectively communicating and effectively

07:50 ** connecting with others? The ego likes to play a game. You've probably played this game before. I know I have.

07:57 Jeffrey Besecker It's called Who's Right. You ever played that game? I think I've been involved with that one a time or two.

08:03 ** Yes. Yeah.

08:08 Jeffrey Besecker It's a game where everybody loses. Yes. Nobody wins in that game.

08:14 ** It's a terrible game to play sometimes. And we forget that that squashes connection. It really, really just ruins connection when we're being right and justified about things. It's so hard to see. It's a lifelong practice. It's something that I've been practicing for a very long time. And still, I get caught in that trap so, so often just forgetting that I have my perspective. And it comes in the most nuanced, small ways. I know that you're a coach as well. I'm a coach. And even still, I can see those judgments flipping by my head when I hear a client come up with an idea that I think is absolutely terrible. But in their reality, it makes perfect sense. And there's a lot of times where I'm wrong. And remembering that is truly a remarkable skill. And I think ultimately, in the pursuit of mastery of that, which is what I'm really

09:16 Jeffrey Besecker interested in, on the other end of that is a deep, deep sense of peace. I love speaking to that point, as you mentioned, of perspective. What do you feel when you enter into conversation or a connection with someone else? What are kind of our setup points we need to consider to allow for that best connection

09:37 ** to happen? It's funny you ask that. I've been thinking a lot about this idea of a perspective and what it takes to really get someone else's perspective. One thing that's been coming up for me in the last couple months is I've been really doing some deep looking into my racial biases. I'm a white man. And I've spent my entire life completely ignoring this issue. It just hasn't come up in my life. It's not like I was actively ignoring it. Spending my time collapsing anti-racism with non-racism because I thought, well, I'm not racist, so I'm not part of the problem. This is not my issue. And naturally, of course, when I actually did the looking, when I looked at my own biases, there they were, my biases at play. And yeah, it turns out that I am racist, as most white people are. I'd say all. But we'll just say most. Maybe I'm wrong. And the thing is, is that I really, the biggest lessons came from a book that I read, which I'd recommend to all of our listeners, regardless of the color of your skin. It's called A Mean White Supremacy by Leila Saad. And in the book, she does a fantastic job. It's 28 chapters. It's a 28 day kind of challenge. You read a chapter a day, two or three pages a chapter. And in each chapter, she goes over what I would call a distinction. She distinguishes like a point of view in the world. She distinguishes what is a white supremacist system. It's a very loaded term, white supremacy. I think about, you know, hatred and that kind of stuff. But there's another way to look at it. She outlines what is white exceptionalism, white fragility, allyship, colorblindness. These terms that I've never heard. And as I dug into this book, I was very confronted because here is this woman who has lived a very different existence to me. Very different where she has been harmed and oppressed because of the color of her skin. I have not experienced that. I have very different experiences in life. I have experiences that I am my own creator, that if I take full responsibility of my life, amazing things are going to happen for me, that I refuse to be a victim. And yet here we have this wonderful woman and she's saying that there's a community of people out there that are being oppressed by a system that I can't see. And I'm upholding that system because I'm benefiting from it. So going back to our perspectives, what she is doing here is she is presenting a perspective. She is inviting me and she's saying, hey, Jonathan, I want you to try on this perspective. Try this on. I want you to imagine that there is a system out there. There is a system. It oppresses, it's harmful to people of color. It's harmful to black people, indigenous people. And when we try to talk to white people about it, they get defensive about it. They say, oh, no, I'm not racist and da da da, the usual things. That's her perspective. Now that clashes with my perspective, so I'm confronted by it. And what I learned through this process is what does it take to try on someone's perspective? And this is what I got, is that in order to try it on what you want to do, and this is what I'm going to encourage all of our listeners to do at any time where someone's really confronting your perspective is really try on the perspective, hold their perspective as if it's true, even just for a second. Imagine that their world and their reality is true for a minute. Try it on like you're trying on a pair of shoes at the store. You know, you've been shoe shopping before you go to the mall. There's that shoe store you love. You walk in there, they got all the shoes on the on the wall there. You kind of know which one you want. So you're kind of scouring about and boom, there's the one. You knew it. It was right there. You grab that shoe, you go to the clerk, tell them your size. They run to the back. You maybe look around like, no, not that shoe. I think I got the shoe here. They bring out the box. It's got the size for your foot. You take out the shoe and then you put it on. You put on the shoe and you give it a little test drive, right? You do the walk around the store. You check it out in that mirror that they only have at shoe stores. And then there's a moment where you make a decision. You either put the shoe back in the box or you can literally walk out of the store with some new shoes on. And that's how it works with a perspective. Hold the perspective to be true. Take the possibility that this person you have a different perspective with. Try on that perspective, hold it as if it's true, then make a decision. If it doesn't work for you, it's just a perspective. It's not the truth. It's not the objective reality. It's just a perspective. Give it back to them. That's totally fine. You're allowed to do that. But there you got to actually try it on, really try it on to be able to really actually give an educated like, no, I tried this on. It doesn't match with my views. I tried to fit it in. It doesn't make sense. And I'm really content with my views. Here's your thing back.

15:04 Jeffrey Besecker What are your thoughts on that? I love looking at that idea of implicit bias. You know, it's that preconceived truth that we're speaking of again. To me, you know, we're pointing out the fact that we're changing our frame of reference in becoming more open and empathetic. We're searching for meaning and context and looking to find understanding. To me, that's crucial. It's crucial not only in dealing with issues of race, issue of conflict, communication in the workplace, but just as how we interact and communicate in order to connect as human beings. You know, to me, that's that's powerful. How do I truly relate?

15:55 ** That is a really profound thing. It just really got me. That is that is it. That is how you relate is actually by taking on someone's perspectives.

16:04 Jeffrey Besecker And that's the only way. Now, definitely, definitely. Until that proverbial shoe is actually on the other foot or has the perspective of how does this thing feel by relating it back to that shoe shopping experience? How does it feel to have these shoes on my feet, to walk around in it, to experience it, to actually step into that zone? To me, that was a great illustration of that. How do I step into presence with this

16:39 ** and become the being and being one with it? You know, what comes up for me is this idea. I know what's happened in my life, and I wonder if it's happened in your life or a listener's life as well as when I'm talking to somebody and they're sharing their experience about just some profound shift they had in the way that they're thinking. It always comes from that kind of there was a perspective shift. They say like, oh, my God, it totally changed the way I look at this. And we talk about that like it's a momentous occasion, like it's something to celebrate. Like I saw the world one way, but then all of a sudden I opened up my perspective to something possibly different. And now I can see the world totally differently. And you know what's really magical about it? It's that you don't lose the other perspective. You only gain a perspective. There's no loss to you. You only have increased empathy and understanding. And as you so eloquently put, an ability to be truly in relation

17:49 Jeffrey Besecker with another human. We look at that from that same old adage of the glass half full, the glass half empty. In that view, we're only adding water to our cup. We're only adding water to our cup. How does this increase me?

18:07 ** How does this increase the other? And talking about kind of the human experience, I mean, like this is like what it's about, right? This is what really separates us from all other animals. I mean, we have this language, these complex thoughts that we get to express with one another. I just think that it's remarkable. And why make waste of that by not at least trying on other perspectives, trying to see those?

18:30 Jeffrey Besecker So, yeah, this is some cool stuff. So looking at that angle, we all strive to effectively communicate. What are some of our greatest tools we can acquire?

18:47 ** That strengthen that interaction. I do have some go to favorites. I'm going to share those because they're my favorites. And we're really taking it from the effective communication standpoint, right? Like, what? What am I doing right now that maybe I can not that my communication is broken or damaged in any way, but maybe there's just something missing. It's like I added in. It'll make a huge difference. And the one thing that we've been doing that I love in this conversation is how much we've been slowing down. Yes. It's nice. That's really cool. But that's not always going to be the appropriate way to have a conversation. This is obviously a tone that we set, and it works really well for this context. But there are some other communication tricks that I would add. The first is this idea of reflective statements of paraphrasing. That is by far, in my opinion, the single most powerful communication technique there is, is just repeating back what you hear other people say. Like minimum 50 percent of all your communication breakdowns, like just eliminated by doing that one thing, just by repeating back what the other person has said. Not only that, not only eliminating communication breakdowns, but actually enhancing the connection between the two of you.

20:19 Jeffrey Besecker You know, there's something magical about being really, truly heard and understood. We had that experience before where someone really got you. Yes, yes. You know, it's that, oh, they understand where I'm coming from. I'm being heard and I'm being seen.

20:38 ** I'm experiencing that right now in that moment, just by that comment you said, like, I get that you got that. You really got my communication right there. We're so connected on the same page right now. And that is what is available to someone when they do this simple technique of paraphrasing. Now you don't need to paraphrase all the time. You don't need to constantly reflect back everything anyone says.

21:02 Jeffrey Besecker Yeah. Being that parrot constantly squawking back everything can become a little a nervy.

21:11 ** Yeah. Yeah. You want to do it with the right volition, right? You want to do it with the intention of creating a greater connection between you and the other person. Yes. What a magical, magical thing to do in a conversation. So that's one thing. I do want to offer another thing. One thing that I love doing is I actually love flipping that paraphrase, that reflective statement. What I actually love to do is I ask people, to repeat back what they heard me say. That is just like, like, I can't even tell you how many disasters have been avoided. Really useful for when you're giving instructions. If you ever feel any sort of agitation, maybe you don't think that they're listening to you. That's a very powerful question to ask. Just be like, you know, you can say something like, I just want to make sure we're on the same page. I want to make sure that you're crystal clear. I want to make sure that I am being clear. I want to make sure that I am being clear. I want to make sure that, you know, this goes as smoothly as possible. Let's just slow down a second. But I want to be clear. What did you hear me say? What did you get from what I said? How did that land with you? Any of those things? I'm just making these up on the spot. It doesn't matter how you ask it, but it's clear that my volition is not to make you wrong, not to prove that I'm better. It's not to fix what you're saying is just let's make sure that we are actually communicating in the same way. Because communication is not ones and zero. That's communications. Communication is I'm going to make a bunch of sounds with my mouth and my vocal cord and my tongue, and it's going to create these weird sounds and it's going to enter your eardrum and go into your brain. And your brain is going to apply meaning to those sounds. And you might misinterpret those sounds or you might have different meaning for those sounds than I do. So that request, a very powerful request, is a great way to make sure

23:05 Jeffrey Besecker that you're staying connected. I love taking that moment to hold space again. I'm taking that second to acknowledge that, A, you're hearing me and then B, giving you the chance to say, I hear you, I see you, I understand you. Slowing that down, because so often we're in a hurry to rush to judgment. We're hurry to get to a point. We're hurry to get an answer back to you without taking the time to pause and think, am I connecting in a way that's going to be meaningful again? To that point, I love that point that am I taking the time to acknowledge you and find meaning?

24:00 ** One of the most powerful communicators I know, he's just so thoughtful in the way that he communicates. And he's so slow and intentional and deliberate. And has no problem sitting with pauses and silences. And in a normal situation, you might think that someone like that doesn't get to say what they want to say, but wow, he is so powerful. And when he does speak, everyone stops talking. Everyone is listening because you know what he's saying is important and valuable.

24:44 Jeffrey Besecker Thought I could attribute that. I don't know why I thought of that. It's so impactful to look at that. You know, so often we get in conversations where somebody rushes, rushes, rushes, and you don't get two seconds to even stop and consider what they are saying. Yet alone to effectively communicate back in a meaningful way. What are some of the ways when we get caught into that cycle that we can kind of help nudge the needle back towards effectively reengaging without

25:37 ** invoking conflict? That is a fantastic question. And let's unpack that a little bit. OK, and let's come up with a scenario because this is the thing. You know, I talk about communication and conflict and people want to know, how do you deal with this kind of scenario and that kind of scenario? And one of the things I love about communication and conflict is it's just it is so highly dynamic and interactive in real time. And there's just no way to possibly predict what's going to happen or have these like even general rules, although I have them, are not very useful because every situation is so complex and tailored and specific that kind of coming up with those steadfast rules don't always work. Just like the ones I gave you. You can't always paraphrase. You can't always paraphrase requests. It just doesn't work. It doesn't work for all conflicts. It doesn't work for all negotiations, doesn't work for all fun conversations. It just is completely dynamic. So we're talking about how do we. Like when we start to notice that that's happening, where we're kind of rushing through things, how do we kind of bring it back without kind of getting ourselves into a conflict? And there's a few ways to do this. And one way to do this is to check in with your body. We're not going to talk about that a ton today, because that is a whole embodiment and body consciousness is a huge thing. But the fact is that. Before any thought consciously appears in your head, you can feel it in your body. They're called interoceptive sensations. They're in your body all the time. They come up as tingling and tension. Tension is very common with stress, by the way, you can imagine. Let me ask you, when you're having kind of like when you kind of get hooked, when you're kind of getting frustrated, angry, agitated.

27:41 Jeffrey Besecker Where in your body do you normally feel that? I tended to be kind of. That holding in your chest anxiety. That grasping for your breath anxiety where that clenching of teeth, you take that big deep breath and then kind of hold it all in. So for me, that tended to be the notion prior to starting some of this work.

28:04 ** Yeah, yeah. And that's super common. That's where I feel it as well. When I'm starting to feel a little agitated and despite all the work that I've done, you know, I'm still still get agitated and definitely feel that in my test. Definitely feel that in my test and also my jaw, like my jaw tight. Right. And other people experience it in their neck, their shoulders, their lower back. They feel heat in their face, all sorts of sensations in your body. But at the end of the day, we know what it is, is we're feeling anxious, we're feeling agitated in some way, shape or form. And that is your first sign, because that happens before the conscious thoughts. If you can actually recognize that before anything, huge difference will be made. Now that takes practice. So say you're not quite in the mode of doing that. You kind of get hooked. You're in it now. OK. One thing that I want to give you and our listeners permission to do is you can always call a timeout if you need to. You can literally say, OK, well, timeout. You could say anything you want to say. You could say, listen, I'm feeling really agitated. I'm going to say things I'm going to regret. Or this conversation is not working for me. I'm feeling clouded with my thoughts and I want to make sure that I'm really listening to you. And I know I'm just like not doing that. And you don't deserve that. Whatever it is that you want to say, but you can call that timeout. And take a break if you need to tell them like I need a 20 minute break and we can come back to this. I need two hours. I need to think about this. I know you want to talk about this right now, but it's not going to work. I'm not communicating well with you. And this is just not going to happen for us right now. Just create that. Make sure you create the follow up so they know you're coming back. You're always allowed to do that in a conversation. OK, so that's the first thing is the body. Next thing is call that timeout. All right. I was thinking of a third one and it's slipping my mind. So we're just going to stick to two great tips for today.

30:05 Jeffrey Besecker Two great tips. That's it. Two great tips gets us on the right path. Sometimes there's beauty in that simplicity. Let's start with those two immediate tips and not make it any bigger than it has to be. You know, I love mentioning and looking at that holding on to tension because so often we get that anxious tendency. We know we're bawling up our hands and we're clenching, holding on to that anxiety and frustration. And it translates back to that old saying of not holding on to hot coals because clenching onto those hot coals is eventually going to burn you before it burns the other. Yeah. Love that. I love looking at that idea and taking that time to kind of release some of that tension and let those calls go. Before you speak from a different mind frame, from a different perspective, from a more attuned idea of listening and absorbing. I love that idea because to me that's taking that time to open the space, to open the door.

31:23 ** And you know, it's so interesting that you say, I love the use of the words, open the door because it is a door that is not necessarily always open. I almost had this visual when you open this door, it's like a pattern interruption. Because normally it goes the same way every time. I know it did for pretty much my entire life. Just an automatic reaction mode. Avoid conflict, explode in conflict, avoid conflict, explode in conflict. And now that there's this door that opens, wow, look at all these other alternatives I can do. Take a break, take a breath, ask them how they're feeling. A million other things you can do. Other than the default reactions.

32:05 Jeffrey Besecker Yes. So often we look at that door as a one way separator. We're closing that door in someone's face. For me to be more effective, we have to look at that door as that revolving door

32:21 ** that we can all step into and all move together in an effective direction. I love the door analogy. It's great. It's on point. Love doors. Love doors. I just grabbed that one and ran with it.

32:37 Jeffrey Besecker To me, there again, I'm listening to your perspective of things and having that aha moment that, hey, this makes sense to me. And to that sense, I can relate that in another way. That makes even greater sense. Let's look at that idea. And I know you and I are both proponents of meditation. What benefit do you feel we can gather from that act of meditation? And it doesn't have to be so much that traditional form of practicing meditation, but taking that moment and taking that moment to the next level. I think there's great power in being able to clear your mind of whatever might be there.

33:22 ** Now there's Navy SEALs do this box breathing method. You may have heard of this right before their big missions. They do the four counts in, hold four counts, four counts out, hold four counts. They do that before their big missions. They do that before their big missions. Four counts out, hold four counts. They do that before their toughest, most critical missions, like the most dangerous things you can imagine. And they're clearing their minds. So what comes from that? Focus, clarity, calm. We have these fight or flight responses that we're all very familiar with. Automatic, not well thought out reactions. And I think that with that clarity that you get from a moment of, like you said, not necessarily the actual meditation practice, although highly recommend that as well. I can provide a lot for a conversation heading into if you're nervous before a meeting for a difficult conversation. You have to maybe it's time to confront a family member about something you've been avoiding. Yeah, absolutely. That moment of clarity will create a solid foundation with which to stand and speak from a place that is from where you want to speak to. Because if you don't want to speak from a place of love, you don't have to speak from a place of love. You can choose wherever you want to go, but at least gives you that moment to actually ground yourself, center yourself and launch from there. Yeah, you know, that's to me, understanding the source of our intentions and aligning that with what we truly value. First and foremost, are we truly valuing someone else also? And you mean this from the point of like a meditation by calming ourselves down? Are we not valuing them? Is that kind of the idea? Yeah, you know, it's kind of the idea. We have to take that time to sit with a reaction and interaction with someone to realize where do we connect and how does that create value for each of us? Where is the value then in the interaction from them? What comes up for me around this is there's so much intentionality behind that. And I think that's what's missing in the vast majority of my conversations. And I imagine everyone else is dealing with the same thing is that there's not that kind of intentionality and thought going into my conversations. For the most part, I'm just kind of barreling into that. Yes. Right.

36:13 Jeffrey Besecker We're like that train running out of control down a hill. No brakes. What happens and what is said? That's it. And that's where the heart just tumbles out. And I love that the idea of taking that breath not only allows you to center yourself in a way that allows you to bring more attention to that conversation. And then there's this other level of, oh, you're actually doing them a service because you're bringing your best self to this conversation. That whole thing of doing them a service. We need to consider how are we being in service of each other? How does what we are communicating best serve us both best serve a vision, best serve a goal or intention?

37:02 ** Now, what comes up for me is this idea of something that I see a lot of my clients challenged with. And I think that this is a kind of a widespread thing is this idea of aligning more closely with our values. Because when you say the word service, I immediately hear, oh, that's a value. That's a value that obviously you have. And I think deep down, everyone has that may not be their top three, top five. Yes. It's important to everyone because it's connected to. Yes. It's connected to so many other values we have belonging, connection, respect, integrity, peace, these. Those are important things to everyone. And yet it's just it's not at the forefront of our consciousness, at least not mine all the time. I mean, I do my best to really align all my actions throughout my days to. To be in line with my values, but, you know, I did coaching school and when the values module came up. Yes, I was in a class with 14 people and I was the only one who had ever even thought of what is a value. And, you know, and just literally had never thought of it before. Like, you know, these are 40, 50 year old adults. And there's nothing wrong or bad about it. It's just.

38:26 Jeffrey Besecker I think it's unfortunate. So often, you know, I feel the majority of us do get caught in that repetitive cycle of not taking a moment and saying, what is important to me? What do I place a greater emphasis on? How do I want to show up?

38:48 ** Those are the bigger things we look at when we talk at what do I value? I was just talking about this quote yesterday that Maya Angelou quote of I'm going to botch it, but people won't remember what you said or what you did, but they're going to remember how they felt being with you. Right.

39:06 Jeffrey Besecker I think you're really tapping into that when you're talking about tension, but we're going into an interaction with someone there again. That kind of comes back full circle to that idea. We're adding water to the glass.

39:23 ** How am I filling up others? And contributing to their greater good. I think how does that relate then to, you know, I can see someone having this response like, okay, well, I can't always be taking care of others. I got to take care of myself.

39:39 Jeffrey Besecker Yes. Yes. We have to have those boundaries that operate from those values. What do I hold important also?

39:49 ** So we don't kick into that people pleaser mode being of service and becoming that kind of doormat, so to speak, are a fine line. Very fine line. Are we being equally respected and appreciated? And my mind goes to, okay, well, what if we're not right? Yes. Yes. That seems to be so often the case. There we kind of breach that idea of that struggle for power, that struggle for understanding. How important do you feel humility and surrender is in the face of conflict versus being taken that extra mile or being taken into that area where we're not being valued? When it comes to conflicts, there are two responses that most of us are very familiar with. I know I am. I'll tell you my two favorite. My number one go to for sure is avoiding. Oh, I'm a professional avoider. I call it like silence. That's me. That's me in a nutshell. That's a deeply ingrained habit. So I'm practicing that to this day. And then on the flip side, if we're not avoiding, then we're exploding. So we got silence. We got violence. And that's kind of the two options that I saw for my entire life. And I think the vast, you know, I see it around in our media and I see it around and just day to day life. And I think that that's kind of the two main reaction go tos that we see. Yes. Either avoid the conflict entirely or just duke it out. You know, just, oh, I'm just going to fight with my partner because then at least it helps us like, you know, air out the dirty laundry. Those are the two options. I don't. That's not the only two options. Yes. Those are our fight or flight responses. Again, those are our stress reactions. Those are useful in some instances. It might be useful in an instance where there is a person in the street yelling and being erratic and I'm feeling a little bit unsafe. Yeah, I'm going to avoid that conflict. I'm not going to approach that person. That's a very sound strategy. And then there's other instances where maybe I'm seeing an injustice and it's really important for me to address that. And I have no relationship to this person and I don't think that I'm in danger. Yeah, I might take on this strategy of exploding. It might actually serve me quite well in terms of getting the result that I want to see. So they're not in any way illegitimate strategies. There is a time and place to use them. However, I'm going to say the vast majority of the time, those instances that I listed, they're not happening in my life. In fact, most of the time, those are not happening. Most of the conflicts that I'm experiencing in my life are with the people in my life. They're with my partner, my wife, they're with family, they're with my friends, they're with coworkers, they're with people I know, people I see on a pretty regular basis. I'm not having a lot of conflicts with strangers. These are people that I'm regularly interacting with. And when I go to those low cooperation responses, I get those responses back and they're harmful. Now, there are other responses that actually involve more cooperation. We can collaborate with the person, we can accommodate them if need be, you know, without resentment. We can find a compromise. Maybe it's not the ideal scenario, but maybe we can find something that works for both of us. Regardless, there are more thoughtful ways of encountering this conflict than our normal, normal, fight or flight, silence or violence responses. And listen, you know, I was just having a chat with somebody. Sometimes you try to collaborate, you try to accommodate, you really do. Like check in with yourself, make sure that you really try to collaborate with them. OK, because I also thought I would collaborate with people and I wasn't really collaborating with them. I was just setting them up for failure so that I could blame them and then, you know, explode and stuff like that. So if you really try collaborating, it doesn't work. OK, maybe there's some other strategies you want to use, but there are other options. And it's worth exploring those ones first. So often we get caught in those conflicts and it's a very action oriented conflict that even how we express it, the butting of the heads, the locking of the horns, the duking it out. You know, ultimately, we should strive toward turning that conflict into a better source of understanding. With that thought, when we're caught in one of those scenarios where we are in a constant cycle of dissonance, how do we approach those difficult connections, those difficult relationships in a way that helps us to come to resolve? You know, there's this woman that she told me this amazing story about. She was in the workplace. She worked in corporate America for some time and. She would be at this meeting, these regular meetings, and she'd be presenting ideas. And there was this guy who just just consistently shoot down her ideas. Consistently. And just for the longest time, she just had it that this guy was out to get her. And there was no other possible reason. So this was an adversary of hers. This was not her friend. And she came to a realization that maybe she wasn't communicating as much as she thought she ought to with this person. So one day. Went up to his office, knocked on the door, said, Hey, can I come in and chat to you for a bit? He said, Sure. She sat down and she said, Hey, listen. No, I'm presenting these ideas at the meeting. I'm actually wondering, can I run them by you and get your feedback on them before I present them? And he totally lit up. He's like, Yeah, that would be great. I would love to do that. She's like, perfect. And off she went. Because turns out he didn't have a vendetta against her. Turns out he wasn't thinking of her as an adversary at all. She made that up. And at the next meeting, when she presented that idea. He was her biggest champion. And from that communication, when they really got in communication with each other, she created a new ally and a new partner in this company where it was an enemy and now it's an ally. And this is just one. One technique that you can use is just by asking for someone else's partnership. What's their idea on how to solve this thing? What would become available for you if they proposed an idea and you said, actually, I love that idea. You know, they're bought in your body. And you can create this whole new relationship with that person. So again, with these communication situations, you know, that context, this technique worked well. Another context where he didn't like her may not have worked as well. Maybe there was a more difficult conversation. Maybe there was more tumultuous. Maybe it didn't happen in one conversation was real. Maybe it took 10 conversations to resolve it. There's a lot of different kind of things at play. But one idea is to ask for people for their partnership and coming up with a solution. This is a this is a classic principle from getting to yes, which I forget when it was written. I think it was like the 90s, maybe the 80s even by the authors are escaping me now. William Uri. Yeah. Principle negotiation. Rule number one, separate the people from the problem. Yeah. Because when you have it that the people are the problem, you are going to lose. You're going to lose. You're playing the game of who's right again.

48:03 Jeffrey Besecker And by separating people from the problem, all of a sudden it becomes you, this woman and this guy against the problem, not her against him. Right. So your thoughts on that? That old us against them. Become such a limiting conundrum. Looking at that angle, there are those circumstances where you've tried to extend that olive branch of peace. You've tried to ask and remain open. How can I help you? How can we come to a better understanding in those cases where you do run into that situation where you're caught with the constant

48:45 ** facilitator, the person that's constantly looking to shoot the hole in the boat, so to speak, and take everyone down with the ship? What do you suggest in those situations when you feel like all means of communication are breaking down? You know, I truly believe that anything and I mean anything on earth can be resolved when people are in communication with each other, like actually in communication. Communication is two ways. It's speaking and it's listening. That second part. No, I tend to forget quite a bit. And the thing is, is when we encounter people, this is actually to add on to the two tips that we had earlier. This is tip number three, and it's perfect for this scenario as well. The end of the day, communication is a two way street. And if people are not cooperating, one lesson that I've learned that's brought a lot of peace into my life is coming to the realization that I cannot control people. I'm not going to hang my hat on changing their behavior or changing the way they are, the way that they're dressing or acting or speaking. That is a big old waste of time and energy. Take a stab at collaborating them. Take a stab at partnering with them. Be really direct to them. I want to partner with you. I'm tired of fighting with you. I want us to work together. How can we make this work? What do you need from me to make this relationship work? How can I help you? You know, go out of your way. And if all of that fails, then just accept that they're not game to cooperate. Maybe you'll take it up with HR if it's an office. Maybe you'll take it up with your boss. If it is your boss, you have a choice. You always have a choice. You can quit or you can put up with it. I mean, at the end of the day, though, holding on to the possibility that they're going to change. That's what I want us to remember that. And I and I still struggle with this, but that is a source of misery. So much misery holding on to that. Yes. You know, there again, it's holding on to those hot coals. Ultimately, if it comes down to it after the end of all of that effort, that you're just constantly being faced with the notion of communicating with them is like poking the bear with a stick. Sometimes there's no shame in putting the stick down and just walking away. And I think that important to remember that idea of there being shame with walking away. That's an idea that like if that was in my situation, I made that up. That's me. I made up a story that it's shameful to walk away. No one said it was shameful. I did.

51:47 Jeffrey Besecker Ultimately, those stories that you're telling yourself are those that end up so often being the most important. So looking in light of dealing with conflict and effectively communicating,

52:02 ** is there anything today in our discussion that you feel we've left unsaid or that we want to touch upon before we wrap this up? One thing that I hope that our listeners are really taking away is that conflict doesn't need to be this scary nebulous thing. It is very manageable. It is very manageable. And that's something you have to cope with. It is something that one can really learn to embrace. And I really recommend that you do because I know that conflict has happened in your past. It's happened in mine. It's happened in everybody's. I'm willing to bet you're also facing some sort of conflict right now in your life. And I will put money on the fact that you are going to continue to face conflicts for the rest of your life. As long as you are in relationship with other people, there's going to be relational conflict. We're not talking about internal conflict, systemic conflict. That's a whole other ballgame. Just with other people, there's going to be conflict. It is actually an inevitability. And kind of like change, change is inevitability. And the more you resist change, the more misery is brought upon you, the more suffering is brought upon you. And it's the same with conflict. If you avoid it, if you resist it, it will bring about that misery. So I hope that's one major thing that I hope our listeners are going to take away is to really lean into that conflict. It's going to make a massive difference. And I'll share a story to maybe demonstrate how far I've come along. Yes. You know, I have a let's call it a difficult relationship with my sister. She occurs for me as someone who is really judgmental and really difficult to handle in my life. And it could be because of our upbringings. We have a long history together. I mean, generally we get along pretty well, but there's just some times where we don't. And in the past, the situations were always the same. She's a very direct communicator. One thing I very much appreciate about her, she's very self-expressed and she will not sugarcoat anything. I actually really do appreciate that about her. Unfortunately, those often come from places of judgment. And like I said in the past, it's just too many more instances to count where she gets angry, says a bunch of things. And then I go on the defense. I argue back. I yell. I do whatever it is to have myself feel heard and understood. While she continues not to feel heard and understood, we go back and forth feeling not heard and understood until we stop talking, let it rest for a few days and then go ahead and sweep it under the rug. Pretend it didn't happen. Although it's there. It's there. It stays in our bodies. It stays in the back of our minds because it's there. She came home. I was living with my mom at the time. My wife and I were living with my mom. Great way, by the way, to save rent, live with your parents. I had a great relationship with my mom, obviously a great relationship with my wife. And we were living in this wonderful household. We had all our routines down and just this full of love and cooperation. I found out my sister after living in New Zealand for a couple of years, she was coming home for a visit. That was going to be the first time I was going to see her in years. She's coming home for six weeks. And for six weeks, I had a new roommate. And as far as I remember, this new roommate does not have the same standards of living standards of cleanliness standards of pretty much anything that I have. This is problematic for me because I created this life where I there was a lot of ease in my life, a lot of peace in my life. I really loved how things were going. And now there's this variable. So what was on my mind, let me tell you, I could not stop thinking about is, oh, man, I got to make sure to talk to her as soon as she gets home so we can set up some ground rules. I think that will be great. You know, I'm a communicator. I'm going to be super clear about my boundaries and what that looks like. Perfect. This is perfect. She came home and I was just I was out and about and I decided to give her a quick call just to make sure. Hey, did you let out the dog? Yeah, I love the dog. OK, cool. Great. Yeah. It's so funny that you're here. Oh, my God. It's been so long. Cool. I'll be home in like a couple hours. By the way, I really want to talk to you about something's been on my mind. I want to talk to you about like setting some ground rules. I think that'll help us really live these next six weeks together really well. OK, cool. See you later. Click. I come home and there's my sister and we hug. It's nice and amicable. We're hanging out in the kitchen and about 10 minutes goes by and, you know, we're just chatting about our days and I'm like, hey, listen, it's been on my mind. I really want to talk to you about setting some ground rules. I think that'll really make a difference in having us like really enjoy these next six weeks together. And that was not what she wanted to hear. She was actually really upset about the fact that when I called her on the phone, that's what I decided to bring up. And it makes sense again in my reality, my truth. Why wouldn't I bring that up? It was literally on my mind for like weeks, like months. I was thinking about this. So, of course, it was on my mind. And for her, she had it like the first conversation should not be about that. It should be like, hey, I'm excited to see you. And in her reality, that makes perfect sense. I actually get that. That would be a very reasonable thing to expect. However, that's not what I said. And that really upset her. And she let me know. Now, normally, I would have defended myself. I would have done a bunch of things wrong. Quote wrong. I would have done a bunch of things that would have made the situation worse. I would have replied back to her comments. I would have said, yeah, but yeah, but this I would have got defensive. I would have made sure to get my point across and clarify my intentions, because, of course, if I clarify my intentions, that makes everything better. No, no, it doesn't. But that's not what I did. I applied some of the things that we actually talked about in this exact podcast. First off, what I did is I started noticing my body got real tense. And so I just focused on breathing. I was breathing in four counts and breathing out four counts, maybe not quite four counts. I was also trying to listen to her. And I just focused on breathing and I could feel my hand shaking because I was so triggered. And when she finished speaking, I didn't respond. I instead repeated back what I heard her say. So you're saying X, Y, Z. Is that right? And she said, yeah, and da da da launched into another thing. And I just kept breathing. And then when she finished that sentence, I said, OK, so what you're saying is X, Y, Z. Is that is that what you mean? Yeah, that's what I mean. OK, good. Is there anything else? No, that's it. OK, cool. Well, I want to let you know. That was not like I didn't really mean to do that. I'm really apologize for that. Like, I definitely didn't want to put you in a space that was you were feeling like that. And and I hope you'll accept my apology. And I don't remember exactly what I said. I said something heartfelt, but I did it after she spoke, after she felt heard and understood. After I took all those breaths, then I went into starting to talk about my perspective, because if I had gone in talking about my perspective right off the bat, it would have gone awry. And instead, I took that position of actually listening to her first and then talking. Yes, yes. You know, we were both a little rattled after that interaction, but I think it went all in all really well. And I just I remember I was glowing for days after that. I'm like, wow, look at that. That could have been a terrible, terrible interaction. And it actually went, OK, I will take that as a way. That's what the practice has done for me and has really created a ton more peace and ease in my life. And that's a perfect example of how I want to emphasize that you launched into this conversation by pointing out something you appreciated in your sister. Pointing out something you respected in her. So often I feel that's a crucial step when you launch into any difficult situation. And we actually have to take the time to acknowledge that in somebody. Amen. Does this set such a stage for these are the things I truly enjoy about you. These are the things that I truly appreciate. And I feel if you search out any relationship, you can come to some level of that. Even though you don't see eye to eye. Yeah. And what a solid, solid place to start a conversation from that space. Right. Yes, that to me opens that door then for that global listening, for taking that moment to take in the other. Yeah. Yeah. Really taking in kind of a fuller picture, creating a clearer context of like there are lots of things I don't like you. But I also actually like these things about you, too. And I'm going to listen for those things as well.

01:02:00 Jeffrey Besecker Well, I want to thank you for sharing that story with us. I want to thank you for taking the time to be with us today and communicate these wonderful tips with us, sharing your insight and just generally sharing your energy with us. Thank you so much. It was an absolute pleasure to have this conversation. I hope it was beneficial for you and our listeners. I feel like I have learned so much today. I would like to share the ability with our listeners to check out your program, Mindful Communication. Where can we go to continue this conversation with you?

01:02:40 ** A great place to continue the conversation is on my podcast, actually. So when you're done listening to this amazing podcast and you've listened to all the episodes and only when you've listened to all the episodes, you can check out my podcast, the Mindful Communication podcast, where I interview experts, thinkers, influencers all around the art and science of connection. Really great stuff on there. And you can also check out my website, mindfulcommunication.me. Jeff's going to put in the show notes. And there you can find two great resources. One is a four part video training series on how to resolve any and all conflicts. No kidding. And the second one is a resource called Tough Talks Made Easy. And it's a 50% and it's a conflict assessment tool where you get 45 minutes with yours truly. And we'll tackle a tough conversation that you've been avoiding so you can have it with confidence, with ease, find your own natural and powerful way to say it. You can use the promo code LIGHT50 for 50% off. So you can stop avoiding that tough conversation and find more peace in your life.

01:03:43 Jeffrey Besecker Perspectives create pathways. Go out and check out that podcast for an additional perspective. Stop by the website and continue the conversation. Thank you again, Jonathan, so much for sharing your light with us today. This has truly been a great and enjoyable conversation. Let's do it again. Agreed. Thank you. I appreciate you so much, sir. By being mindful of how we communicate with others, we can nurture truly authentic relationships that enrich our lives for years to come. Mindful communication is really just bringing communication into our conscious awareness and remembering. Mindful communication starts and flows through active, present and mindful listening. Research tells us relaxed and compassionate minds are better listeners. Connecting authentically with others aligns us with awareness and understanding of the world around us. To embrace our essential being and unite as one, we form bonds that connect us all. We explored some amazing ideas sharing how you can improve your communication and build more empowering relationships. Now we'd like to hear what you found meaningful in today's show. Share this insight on social media at The Light Inside, tagging a friend, letting them know what you found meaningful or send us a message at www.thelightinside.us. I'd like to take a personal moment now to recognize our senior program manager, Anna Goetz. We depend on Anna here at The Light Inside to handle many of the behind the scenes duties of our program, including writing of content and orchestrating many of our daily tasks. Thank you, Anna, for sharing your light. And as always, we're grateful for you, our valued listening community. This has been The Light Inside. I'm Jeffrey Besecker. Thank you.